Tags
dol guldur, dwarves, fight, fighting, gandalf, hobbit trailer, necromancer, sauron, thorin, thrain
I finally had time to go through the trailer frame by frame and wondered, like most people probably did, what nasty creature Gandalf is fighting in this scene (click on pics for HD screenshots):
Then it dawned on me; look at what “it” is wearing! That pattern! A dwarf-looking pattern, if I am any judge (and I’m not, but it’s my blog so humor me!) What other race would wear something with those particular shapes in the fabric. It looks distinctly like worn velvet, and reminds me more than a little of the velvet surcoat Thorin wears.
Now, let’s look at those worn rags again. They were not always rags, and from what we have seen of LOTR creatures, no orc or goblin would be wearing something so civilized. So perhaps this creature is actually a dwarf. I’m going to throw out the possibility that velvet would only be worn by those of a noble house, and why not the house of Durin itself?
Thrain II has already been cast (actor Mike Mizrahi) and should be appearing somewhere in the films, but there are many possible places, as Thorin’s father was present for the coming of Smaug, and the battle of Azanulbizar. But he was also the one to give Gandalf the iconic items which the wizard later bestows upon Thorin.
In The Hobbit, Gandalf explains to Thorin:
“Your father went away to try his luck with the map after your grandfather was killed; and lots of adventures of a most unpleasant sort he had, but he never got near the Mountain. How he got there I don’t know, but I found him a prisoner in the dungeons of the Necromancer….I tried to save your father, but it was too late. He was witless and wandering, and had forgotten almost everything except the map and the key.”
Thrain was supposed to have been taken to the pits of Dol Guldur, so Sauron could take back the ring of power. There he was driven mad, and did not know himself by the time Gandalf found him. He had also been blinded in one eye during the battle of Azanulbizar, and though we can’t see very close here, there is a nasty old scar running down the side of his head. Check out this post for a detailed biography on Thrain.
In this last shot, he appears more like a bearded man (or dwarf) than any creature. It is hard to tell if the person in question is of dwarf height, compared to Gandalf, but if he is, could this horrid wretch be King Thrain?
Although not very flattering, there is a sort of similarity to Thorin, with long dark hair, and deep set eyes. We assume that Thrain was withered away to nothing due to long imprisonment and torture, but the book really does not specify. So a death brought on by a mad rage may be possible too.
But despite this, the timing may not be correct. I do not see Glamdring in this fight scene, but it is in several other frames before it, which appear to take place in a similar looking area. If Gandalf has the sword here, then this should not be Thrain, unless they have altered the times, or story-lines, drastically (which is not unheard of).
Keep in mind, I have not had time to check other blogs to see if this has already been hashed out. These are just my observations and conjectures.
I think it IS Thrain. Gandalf must be searching for him in Dol-Guldur, but what he found was zombie… erm… I mean tortured mad dwarf who can’t recognize who’s an enemy and who’s a friend. But, darn, he’s still a good fighter.
Wondering how likely the zombie thing might be. That would be horrific for sure, but ties in well to the whole Necromancer thing. I mean what’s a Necromancer to do without some dead people to control?? [And why do I have deja vu over this sentence? Think I may be going mad. Just ignore.]
So, if we accept that it is Thrain, then we have to decide if he is in a possessed form, deceased or otherwise, or just an insane but otherwise normal dwarf.
Poor Thrain! How much more torment will be heaped on the house of Durin in PJ’s version??
On the other hand, you’ve gotta hand it to this mad zombie dwarf for nearly taking off the wizard’s head! That can’t be easy.
It’s so wrong, but now I really want to see this fight!
In eanglish the word “necromancer” can mean two things, a person that uses dark magic or a person who uses un-dead magyc, the word comes from latin and actualy necro(dead) mancer( user or caster) and for the black magyc word the correct but i think unexistant word would be nigro(black) mancer(user, caster) and the name neromancer comes to Sauron because he is not in his body, his spirit posesed a powerful servant I think, and beacause of the magyc he useas the name comes out too, so he is a combination of both words. (sorry if I had many spelling mistakes)
definitely could be, with the hanging corpse in the cage all rotted out. I don’t remember anywhere that Gandalf fights anyone in the book, especially in an exposed outcropping somewhere. It could set for a pretty nifty opening though, a sort of prologue. Would be an epic start to have familiar Gandalf appear and do a random mysterious battle in a necromancer’s dungeon only to get a key and map that is heavily foreshadowed yet not explained, then que the shiar.
Hi DarkJackal,
Lots of good information here to digest! Thanks for sharing and clarifying for us.
Holiday Cheers! Grati ;->
Thank you Grati! My pleasure [actually my obsession], but either way…glad to be of service.
Hmmm …. great spotting. I missed this completely. The figure certainly looks like the dwarves seen in the first scenes of FOTR as the seven rings were forged. Great detective work
Thanks! I’m surprised no one has told me I’m looney yet, but it seems other people have come to the same conclusion.
I’m sort of sickly happy that we may see a wizard/dwarf fight. How weird is that?
To me, this could be part of that “problem” that need Gandalf’s attention when he had to leave the expedition before they went into Mirkwood.
Yeah, there is really no telling on what time it is set in.
I think it´s actually Thrain, and These scene is before the Hobbit, of how Gandalf got the map and key, and next scenes are previous to the white Council´s atack
Excellent observations, darkjackal! I’m so glad you showed these images because although I’d heard that the character in this scene might be Thrain, I just couldn’t make out any details. I’m sure you’re right. And I’m amazed at how you noticed the pattern on the fabric.
How cool that you saw the single eye of the character in the Guardians trailer–I thought it was Gimli for sure, but now you’ve convinced me otherwise.
Also, I’ve been listening to the Riddles in the Dark podcasts, and they seem to believe that the Hobbit movies will include elements from the LOTR appendices, which would make it very possible that we will see on the screen Gandalf’s trip to Dol Guldur and a meeting with Thrain.
I definitely can’t wait to see this fight. Although I’m sure Gandalf is pulling his punches, as it were, so as not to kill the poor mad dwarf.
Hello,
My name is Stephen Lemlek and I’m the EIC at unleashthefanboy.com. I’ve just written an article questioning whether Peter Jackson would be liberal enough with Tolkien’s works to present Gandalf and Sauron fighting on Dol Guldur.
I’ve cited this article as the more probable scenario.
Thought you’d like the shout out!
Thanks Stephen!
Hi D.J.,
Great observations, and I agree with most of your theory. The question of Glamdring, however, can be explained as this flight happened between Thrain and Gandalf before Gandalf acquired Glamdring. It may be, in fact, an explanation of how Gandalf acquired the map and key, which in the movie are both a complete surprise to Thorin. This is all speculation of course, but Jackson won’t leave us hanging about this mystery fight. Keep in mind, dwarves/darrows are known for their endurance, and closely guard/covet their treasure. What could drive that poor dwarf to witless madness that he could not recall his own name? That should be reveled as well!
This is definitely a dwarf. It is quite obviously Gandalf, and this is unmistakably Dol Guldur. In my opinion, PJ put this scene in later than we might of expected. The only question I have is, is this a flashback or a screw up of Jackson’s? Gandalf helps drive out the Necromancer while the company is in Mirkwood. Thrain is long since dead by then. Gandalf also did not have access to Glamdring, and there would be no point for him to return other than to drive out Sauron. In another trailer, he is shown to be walking UNDERGROUND alone with his staff lit. This may or may not be the “dungeons of Dol Guldur” mentioned in the novel, but after all, nothing is for certain.
Frostbitten,
There appears to be a narrow underground path that looks similar to the Weta designs of the High Fells where the Witchking of Angmar is buried. Perhaps Gandalf goes to investigate as “the riddle of the Morgul blade” needs answering.
How do you know the designs of the High Fells? I’m jelly. And If so, that still doesn’t explain what Gandalf is doing. In my opinion, This is either a flashback, or a PJ screwup that puts Gandalf in Dol Guldur later than in the book. I’ll get back to you on this.
Hi,
There is a lovely hardcover book put out by Weta called “The Hobbit: An Unexpected Jouney. Chronicles, Art & Design” written by Daniel Falconer and published through Harper Design, New York, 2012. Page 150 shows drawings of the High Fells similar to that of the trailer. I think the book was set for publication prior to the decision to make The Hobbit into three movies. Looking at the chronology layed out in the book, we were to see the High Fells in the “Journey” had the movie been divided into two. The art in this book is extraordinary! You will read it cover to cover many times over, and make you run and see the movie again and again!
Funnily enough, I discovered it at my public library this morning even BEFORE I saw your post. Thanks anyway, though and I can’t wait to read it. Btw I’ve seen the movie twice.