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age, appearance, bilbo, dwarves, gandalf, hobbit trailer, ian mckellen, lifespan, mirkwood, quest of erebor, richard armitage, spiders, thorin, unfinished tales
The Mythgard Institute recently posted a podcast about Thorin (previous editions have been about Thror and Thrain). Here is the summary from Mythgard.org:
Prof. Corey Olsen and Dave Kale finally get to the heart of the matter and discuss Thorin Oakenshield. They compare his different portrayals across The Hobbit, Appendix A of The Return of the King, and different versions of The Quest of Erebor and analyze how they may be combined and adapted by Peter Jackson’s team in the upcoming The Hobbit films.
This episode can be downloaded as an mp3 from their website. I’m happy to see it covers many of the things I have pondered about the character. Mr. Kale and Dr. Olsen are (obviously) well-informed on the topic, and attempt to support their speculations with available evidence. Among other things, they focus on how material outside the main Hobbit text (namely “The Quest of Erebor”) may impact character relationships in the story, particularly in terms of heightening early tension between Gandalf, Thorin, and Bilbo.
There is more than one version of the “Quest” in Unfinished Tales, but the following segment makes the conflict between Thorin and the wizard very explicit. After Gandalf has introduced the hobbit, Thorin is not only contemptuous of Bilbo, but has a hard time hiding his skepticism of Gandalf’s wisdom. Gandalf basically counters with “it’s either my way or the highway”:
“Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield!” [Gandalf] said. “If this hobbit goes with you, you will succeed. If not, you will fail. A foresight is on me, and I am warning you.”
“I know your fame,” Thorin answered. “I hope it is merited. But this foolish business of your hobbit makes me wonder whether it is foresight that is on you, and you are not crazed rather than foreseeing. So many cares may have disordered your wits.”
“They have certainly been enough to do so,” [Gandalf] said. “And among them I find most exasperating a proud Dwarf who seeks advice from me (without claim on me that I know of), and then rewards me with insolence. Go your own ways, Thorin Oakenshield, if you will. But if you flout my advice, you will walk to disaster.”
(Tolkien, J.R.R. Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-Earth. New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1980).
So far, the only interaction we have seen of their movie counterparts is in the trailer, where Gandalf and Thorin are discussing the care and safe-keeping of Bilbo, or more accurately, the lack thereof.
There are no fireworks between them in this short clip, but there is the hint of a challenge/threat in Thorin’s words, as if he is testing whether or not Gandalf’s conviction is strong enough to allow the potential sacrifice of his small friend. But we also know from the set report by Quint (of Ain’t It Cool News) that Thorin respects Gandalf. He describes a scene between Ian McKellen and Richard Armitage:
It’s late in the day and the idea is that this is a suitable place to make camp, but Gandalf wants to push on and seek Elrond’s council at Rivendell.
This scene is all about Thorin and my first real chance at seeing Richard Armitage craft a layered performance with the character. Thorin’s a stubborn dwarf, very much a leader, but is smart enough to heed the council of Gandalf.
He is a man torn in this scene. His deep resentment at the elves (he believes they have betrayed his ancestors by not stepping in when they needed their help) pulls him one way, but his respect for Gandalf pulls him the other.
Armitage does a great job with Thorin’s inner struggle. The look on his face isn’t someone locked into a decision. Gandalf urges him to seek Elrond’s help, for the good of the quest. Instead of playing it like a stone-faced general, Armitage does weigh his options and mostly in reaction to Gandalf’s words, not in his own dialogue. (Nov. 27, AICN)
If this is any indication, by this point in the film Thorin has given Gandalf his trust, but whether that comes from a general respect for wizard-kind (which he may have had from the start), or a new-found appreciation due to events, is unknown.
Additionally, Mr. Kale and Dr. Olsen debate how Thorin’s more youthful-than-expected appearance may affect his willingness to take advice from the elder-looking Gandalf. I personally do not feel Thorin’s age need influence anything relating to Gandalf. Whether Thorin is supposed to be 100, or 200, becomes irrelevant when compared to the wizard’s thousands of years. But I can see how, as a viewer, we might believe an older-looking Thorin is more like a peer to Gandalf, while a younger one would appear brash and less wise. The Mythgard folk imply that because Thorin looks younger than Balin, that it must be so. I’m not certain this is an established fact in the film just yet. I think they could be the same age as their book versions (where Thorin is pushing 200, and seventeen years older than Balin). As a descendant of Durin the Deathless, Thorin may be unusually well-preserved. [Update: I feel like I need to support my assertions, so here is the quote giving Tolkien’s notes on dwarf age and appearances:
“Dwarves of different ‘breeds’ vary in their longevity. Durin’s race were originally long-lived (especially those named Durin), but like most other peoples they had become less so during the Third Age. Their average age (unless they met a violent death) was about 250 years, which they seldom fell far short of, but could occasionally far exceed (up to 300). A dwarf of 300 was about as rare and aged as a Man of 100.
Dwarves remained young – e.g. regarded as too tender for really hard work or for fighting – until they were 30 or nearly that (Dain II was very young in 2799 (32) and his slaying of Azog was a great feat). After that they hardened and took on the appearance of age (by human standards) very quickly. By 40 all Dwarves looked much alike in age, until they reached what they regarded as old age, about 240. They then began to age and wrinkle and go quite white quickly (baldness being unknown among them), unless they were going to be long-lived, in which case the process was delayed.”
After reading this, it becomes apparent that Balin’s movie appearance (which is lauded by many purists as being “what a dwarf should look like” deviates further from the standard than Thorin’s. In The Hobbit, Tolkien describes Balin as being “a very old-looking dwarf with a white beard” even though he is only 178, and we must wonder if he just forgot about that when writing his genealogy, or if it is an intentional oddity about Balin.]
Either way, I don’t predict this to matter much in terms of plot. A coming-of-age story seems far-fetched for a character like Thorin, in my opinion.
The podcast ends with predictions on whether or not Thorin is present for the fun with the giant spiders. In the book, he is captured by elves right before the spiders get the rest of the group. The 4th v-log showed dwarves, Thorin included, running from something in Mirkwood, partially covered in cobwebs.
In a separate shot, most of the dwarves are nicely cocooned. Judging by the broad-shouldered silhouette, I tend to think the dwarf sitting upright is either Dwalin or Thorin, but can find no way to make a positive ID.
We cannot know for sure which scene comes first. In the first picture they may have escaped from the cocoons already, and have only the residue to show for it, but Mirkwood appears to be covered in webs, and it would be tough not to contact them when running. If that is the case, Thorin may yet be free to fall for some exclusive elven enchantment. Mr. Kale and Dr. Olsen each make good arguments for why the filmmakers might, or might not, choose to include Thorin in the spider fight.
Overall, there is quite a lot covered in their discussion, though one of the things I would have liked to hear are thoughts on whether or not the Arkenstone will play an important role in the movie (will it even be mentioned?). But we must save something for another time!
Hi DJ,
I love this essay! Thanks for it and the link to the Mythgard. And I love your comment about Thorin being “unusually well-preserved” due to good genes. Ha! It also occurred to me that since Thorin is supposed to be around 197 years old–but in my limited reading of “The Hobbit” that Dwarfs can live to be around 400 years old–that Thorin is merely middle aged, about 50 in human years. Besides, Richard Armitage at 40 years old looks ten years younger than that in these photos. So Thorin’s good genes coupled with merely middle age make Thorin one rocking Durin dude. IMHO. Ha!
Cheers! Grati ;->
We know Durin the Deathless lived long enough for those around him to be surprised he was still going, and that there were five heirs who appeared just like him, which is what I’m using as basis for the “good genes” theory. We don’t know for what percentage of Durin’s life he appeared hale and hearty, though I’m guessing that he and his line deviated from the average.
It is hard to judge dwarf lifespan since most did not die of natural causes. We can gather that 250 was considered old, since Gandalf remarked how it was incredible that Dain was still able to fight at the age of 252. And when asked if he would try to retake the Lonely Mountain, Thror, Thorin’s grandfather, replies “not at my age” and he was 248 at the time, so I’m assuming he was feeling worn out by then. Of course, he then goes off to Moria and gets killed. Rarely do these people die lying in bed!
Dwalin has the longest lifespan on record of 340, but that record is disputed. As Christopher Tolkien explained “It will be found in the genealogical table that the life-span of all the ‘kings of Durin’s folk’ from Thrain I to Nain II varied only between 247 and 256 years, and no Dwarf in the table exceeded that, save Borin (261) and Dwalin, who lived to the vast age of 340 (the date of his death appears in all the later texts of the table, although the first to give dates seems – it is hard to make out the figures – to make him 251 years old at his death.”
The best information comes from notes Tolkien wrote for himself. I do not have a print version of this on hand, but others have transcribed the notes, which can be found in The History of Middle-earth vol XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth; ‘Durin’s Folk’.
“Dwarves of different ‘breeds’ vary in their longevity. Durin’s race were originally long-lived (especially those named Durin), but like most other peoples they had become less so during the Third Age. Their average age (unless they met a violent death) was about 250 years, which they seldom fell far short of, but could occasionally far exceed (up to 300). A Dwarf of 300 was about as rare and aged as a Man of 100.
Dwarves remained young – e.g. regarded as too tender for really hard work or for fighting – until they were 30 or nearly that (Dáin II was very young in 2799 (32) and his slaying of Azog was a great feat). After that they hardened and took on the appearance of age (by human standards) very quickly. By forty all Dwarves looked much alike in age, until they reached what they regarded as old age, about 240. They then began to age and wrinkle and go white quickly (baldness being unknown among them), unless they were going to be long-lived, in which case the process was delayed. Almost the only physical disorder they suffered from (they were singularly immune from diseases such as affected Men, and Halflings) was corpulence. If in prosperous circumstances, many grew very fat at or before 200, and could not do much (save eat) afterwards. Otherwise ‘old age’ lasted not much more than ten years, and from say 40 or a little before to near 240 (two hundred years) the capacity for toil (and for fighting) of most Dwarves was equally great.”
Looking at these notes, it remains subjective what they look like between the age of 40 to 240 where “all dwarves looked the same” aside from the assertion that wrinkles and white hair do not appear till after 240. I have a feeling Balin’s description in The Hobbit of being “a very old-looking dwarf with a white beard” (at only 178) was either forgotten when Tolkien wrote his genealogy, or is some odd thing about Balin in particular. But if you accept these notes as part of the canon, then as far as the movie versions go, Balin’s appearance (and that of any of the older looking dwarves, such as Dori and Oin,) is the anomaly, whereas Thorin’s appearance fits Tolkien’s description of a 197 year old dwarf just fine, at least as far as age is concerned. I won’t get into the short beard thing!😉
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These lectures are fascinating! Thanks for sharing.
That was a great read. I look forward to reading more of your stuff in future.
Thanks for getting into this. I’ve searched all over the interwebs for an answer.
Curious, though, what are your thoughts about beard lengths? :]
It was not the easiest info to track down, but interesting. And we now know my theory on the ages isn’t happening in the film, but no matter.
As for the beards…I like Richard Armitage’s own explanation about why Thorin has a surprisingly short beard for the king of the Longbeards. He had to come up with a rationalization for his own peace of mind, though we don’t know yet if it is going to be mentioned or used in the film. I feel it is rather poignant, and adds to whole air of tragedy about Thorin:
“I needed to find a reason for this and when I read Thorin’s account of how when his grandfather and father, Thror and Thrain, came out of the Lonely Mountain after the attack by Smaug the dragon, they had singed beards. This gave me the solution: he has cut his beard short, as a mark of respect to the indignity suffered by them. Perhaps if he ever gets to sit on his throne again as king he’ll grow a big old beard and tuck it into his belt, like Tolkien wanted!” [from The Official Movie Guide]