Tags
aidan turner, dean o'gorman, dwarves, essay, fili, kili, richard armitage, thorin
In Defense of Fili, Kili and Thorin Oakenshield – an Appreciation Beyond Hot Dwarves.
[Originally written in German by ArchedCory and translated to English, with editing by D.J.]
*Movie and end of book spoilers* – You’ve been warned!
In regards the royal trio, there has been much complaining over the past year: Too undwarven, too handsome, not enough beard… It is too bad that many people never got past this. Yes, we already know plenty of reasons for their appearance – there are 13 dwarves and we need to distinguish them, etc…but I turned away from the topic of appearance a long time ago to dig deeper into the matter instead. Though I never liked Thorin in the book, Fili and Kili were my favourite dwarves from my first reading of the story. But because the three of them are related to each other, I gathered information about all of them from whatever books and production videos were available prior to the film.
Thorin is very well described in the book, though his motivation often remains hidden (which is probably why he appears to be unsympathetic for many readers). However we don’t know a whole lot about Fili and Kili. Most of the time when they appear together, they are in a good mood, and they are often sent scouting. Only Fili has a solo moment or two in the book (such as the scene involving the rope, and later on the apple barrel). So from the reading we know only that they are cheerful, they are young, and they are Heirs of Durin. But that alone is already a LOT more than we know about some of the other dwarves, such as the brothers Dori, Nori and Ori.
However, even from this information alone one can conclude quite a lot about their characters: We have two fairly young dwarves who have never been involved in a serious fight, and who are very eager to go on this journey. On the other hand they have absolutely no idea what they can expect; they know Erebor and Smaug only from tales. Thorin, however, knows very well what lies at the end of the journey, so he especially keeps an eye on those two boys. Of course he is glad they come along, but he also wants to keep them from harm. Since the two boys find everything exciting, he has to dampen their enthusiasm every once in a while, because life out there is not a picnic.
Regarding the royal descent: Fili is the older brother and second in the line of succession. He feels the pressure weighing down on him a lot more. He knows if anything happens to Thorin it is up to him to fulfil the quest. He HAS to be a responsible dwarf despite his young age, no matter if he wants that or not.
Kili, on the other hand, has a lot less to worry about. He is only third in the line of succession (I guess you can sleep more easily over that). That, and the fact that he is the youngest in the company, make him a naïve but adventurous dwarf who often acts heedlessly and doesn’t always think before talking.
And behind all that stands Thorin, to whom his legacy and his quest to reclaim Erebor is so important that he totally gives himself up to it. It goes so far that he would even give his life to fulfil the quest for his people. So he not only keeps an eye on his nephews, but he also reprimands them should they act foolishly because of their youth.
Now these are all thoughts I had prior to seeing the movie.
When the first images of the dwarves appeared I felt their “undwarven” appearance seemed odd, but the more I saw and read, the more I could embrace the designs and take them for granted. By this point I don’t even notice it in the movie, and I now believe that Fili looks just about perfect for a dwarf. They act, move and talk like dwarves, and that alone is convincing enough for me.
I especially like their gear and the love for details in their clothing. They really tried to give them a distinct royal style, and I find it very convincing! Fili, Kili and Thorin each have their own emblem, which repeats itself on clothes and accessories. You can see that Fili and Kili haven’t traveled much and never fought, because their raiment appears to be completely new and unworn. Thorin gains size simply by his cape (and I know how odd it is to say that about a dwarf). Add to that the boots and the fur… simply amazing!
And then there are the weapons. Thorin’s actual sword (not Orcrist) and his axe are undoubtedly recognizable as dwarven weapons: Big and heavy but at the same time elegant and never bulky. I smirked when I read about Fili’s armoury: His two swords are designed so wonderfully! The double scabbard is a gem in itself; worn on the back, he pulls out one sword from over his shoulder and the other one from underneath. Then there is his warhammer, and even in his garments he is carrying weapons – daggers in his gauntlets and two throwing axes in each boot. With this in mind, it is such a huge shame that you can see Fili fighting only twice in the whole movie. And even that goes by in the blink of an eye.
Let’s not forget Kili with his sword (a design which I find absolutely lovely) and his bow, the style of which never makes him seem to be an Elf because it is shorter and heavier than any elvish bow. It is unfortunate he relies on the bow throughout most of the movie (to the point of almost getting monotonous). I would have loved to see him use the sword more often. Oh and for completeness: According to the Weta Chronicles book, Kili also carries a pocket knife which can also be used as a saw. Maybe we will get to see this in one of the later movies.
But let’s put aside the topic of appearance—enough has been said about beards, noses and hair—and instead, let us look at character implementation in the movie. Fortunately, I found that whatever I had pieced together before the movie debuted actually occurred! But many of these things will only be apparent if you have thought about it thoroughly. I have heard comments like “Fili and Kili are without character,” and it is something I cannot comprehend.
Let us begin with Thorin. He is as pretentious as expected. BUT – and I didn’t expect this – you get to see what made him that way. And suddenly you start to feel deep compassion for him. His emotions are no longer perceived as unsympathetically arrogant, but as deep bitterness. Richard Armitage portrays this bitterness, and also the typical stubbornness of dwarves, to an extent that goes beyond the human. He totally blew me away! It goes so far that tears burst into my eyes when Thranduil turns him down, when he listens to Balin’s narration of Azanulbizar, and especially when he loses his Oakenshield – probably the biggest disgrace for him.
Fili is really the more responsible of the brothers. Yes, he has one overly obvious line (“If there is a key, there must be a door!”) but besides that he only says reasonable things. His oration in Bag End deeply impressed me. I didn’t expect that from him! But you can see the prince in him revealed in this scene.
In contrast, Kili is often so rash that it gets nearly annoying. There is always a thoughtless comment on his lips, and he never thinks beforehand if his actions are reasonable. And still he tends to go unscathed in almost every situation – I guess it’s the luck of the fool. When he feels insecure he often looks to Fili or Thorin for advice. His heritage is never as pressing a matter to him as it is to Fili. For him this whole journey right now is just an exciting adventure.
Thorin also plays the fatherly figure to Fili and Kili, and that is shown surprisingly often – IF you are looking closely. It’s apparent in the two times he reprimands Kili (of course it would be Kili, as the young, heedless dwarf) or the moments in which he calls out for them, or entrusts tasks to them. Perhaps you noticed how in the Trollshaws he stops Kili from attacking all by himself. Earlier, when he calls out for Fili and Kili to look after the ponies he adds “Make sure you stay with them!” It reminded me of mothers; they always add something like “be careful” after their instructions while people who aren’t close wouldn’t do that. And when he believes Fili to be lost on the stone giants, you can feel very strongly his despair over this ONE dwarf although a lot more of his company were involved in this collision.
Compare this to the relationship of the boys towards Thorin: It becomes obvious (albeit often only through mimicry) that Kili really wants to impress Thorin. This is visible for instance in the end scene, where Kili helps Thorin up on his feet. Earlier, when Kili frightens Bilbo, and Thorin reprimands him, he seems to be really embarrassed. Often he sees things first and immediately reports to Thorin because it is important to him that the information comes from HIM and Thorin also notices that. And when Thorin gives him this “Hello? Could you please shoot that warg?” look when they are surrounded in the plains, he is embarrassed again for not thinking about it first. On the other hand, when he shoots his first warg (in the forest with Radagast) he gains a short but approving glance from Thorin. How great it must have been for him to get that!
However I get the feeling Thorin is generally aware and proud of Kili’s archery skills. You can see some kind of reaction from Thorin in almost every scene involving Kili shooting an arrow. He even shouts out to him at one point: “Kili, shoot them!”
Fili, on the other hand, has deep respect for Thorin, and he would never get into trouble as Kili does. He takes his responsibilities seriously, and he is even more loyal to Thorin than all the other dwarves in the company. There is one line in this context which I found exceptionally remarkable: When they lose their ponies and Bilbo asks if they should report to Thorin, it is actually Fili who says “No, let’s not worry him.” It’s such a simple line, but this is very typical for Fili. He wants neither to get Thorin angry nor Kili into trouble. You can really see his concern when he desperately cries out for Thorin in the end while they are flying on the eagles (that is a real goosebump moment).
You can see both boys’ concern when the two of them come together in defense of Thorin (yes, even that moment exists in this movie!) When Thorin is defeated in the last scene and even Bilbo seems to fail after his heroic deed, the three dwarves closest to Thorin begin one last desperate attack: Fili, Kili, and after them also Dwalin.
The relationship between the brothers is one of my favourite parts. They have never been separated, and they love each other dearly, and really do everything together. They even think alike so it seems. You always see them together: at the table in Bag End, in almost every wide shot, in battle, and most poignantly in the end when they share the same eagle! They also lift Bilbo onto his pony together in the very beginning. Another nice moment was when Thorin and Bilbo spot Erebor on the horizon and talk about it so that the whole company also looks at the mountain—except for Fili and Kili, who stare into the opposite direction. I don’t know what they see there, but it must be a lot more important to them at least.
And then there is the scene were they lose two ponies, although they paid attention SO well. I suppose in reality they really just behaved mischievously again.
And watch them closely when one of them speaks. The other one is usually looking at the talking brother in approval. Also Fili is never laughing at Kili when he is making one of his silly remarks. Even then Fili seems to be proud of his brother.
All in all the two boys are very refreshing to see especially BECAUSE they have no clue what is lying ahead of them.
By now it should become clear why the scene on the stone giants is so heartbreaking for me. When he reaches out for Fili but can’t grasp his hand, Kili is truly horrified. He cannot imagine a life without Fili. It would be the biggest disaster for him if Fili were no more. Yes, there is only a moment to catch his facial expression, but I think it is very easy to read all that in there.
I once read that someone felt it was entirely irrelevant to the movie that those three dwarves are related. Excuse me, but have you even read the book? The first time their relationship is mentioned is as “early” as ESGAROTH! But it is in a very impressive way. The dwarves step out of their barrels and Thorin introduces his nephews as:
“The sons of my father’s daughter, Fili and Kili of the race of Durin.” Yes, he is very proud of them! As I said, in the book it is never mentioned before that, so why in the movie? Those who haven’t read it won’t know, but they already get little glimpses of it and it will become plausible later on. This is not any different in the book by the way.
One of those little glimpses is – to me at least – the most important scene concerning the Heirs in this movie. When Thorin enters Bag End he suddenly spots Fili and Kili and gives them a proud smile (and keep in mind: Thorin hardly ever smiles!). It is hard to make out, I admit, because of the camera angle in this scene. But it is definitely worth watching for!
So why Thorin-Fili-Kili? Because their characters and the interactions between them make them the most interesting group of people in this whole story. So when I worship them it is really not at all about the much too often quoted “hot dwarves” but about the Heirs of Durin, whose story couldn’t be any more gripping.
So in the future movies I already look forward to Fili’s dilemma with the apples, the fact that Fili and Kili won’t be influenced at all by the call of the gold, and somehow, even to the heroic death of all of them. Because I know PJ will celebrate them in their full glory.
And in the end they are Heirs of Durin. What is there not to like?
fedoralady said:
This is wonderful, DJ. Thank you for sharing. I was touched by the close bond we saw between their uncle, father figure and warrior leader and the two eager young dwarves. Will be so interested to see how this plays out in the subsequent films.
I also like Thorin much better in the film than the Thorin in the book, quite frankly, and I love Richard’s performance. He’s met and exceeded my expectations.
D.J. said:
Thank you, but I must acknowledge that it is not I who wrote it (I only edited for flow). ArchedCory is the author, and a new contributor to the blog. But I agree that Richard brings much more to the story than was originally apparent in The Hobbit, (although Tolkien’s further exploration of that character in the Appendices and Quest for Erebor contain enough prompts that could easily lead one to this type of characterization).
Ms Congeniality said:
Couldn’t agree with you more :)
fedoralady said:
Reblogged this on the armitage effect and commented:
A well-thought-out essay by archedcory featured on DJ’s blog re Uncle Thorin and his sister-sons. Definitely worth reading (there are spoilers if you haven’t seen film).
fedoralady said:
Understood, and in my comments on the reblog you can see I credited it to archedcory. Again, thanks. :D
D.J. said:
Ah I see now. We both thank you!
fedoralady said:
No problem at all. Welcome to a great blog, archedcory, and I look forward to reading future posts by both of you. :D
Tony Sejari said:
It’s very interesting to read this essay.
And more than once I had to nod in agreement when it came to certain characteristics or behaviors.
It gives a good look into your family
Laurie C said:
I LOVE your analysis! I noticed many of the things you talked about. When I go see the movie again, I will look for the other things. Thanks again archedcory!
fedoralady said:
And Laurie is a very ardent Tolkien admirer so this is high praise, indeed. :D
archedcory1 said:
Just a quick note from me, because I really haven’t figured out all the technical stuff behind this website (I suck at this and don’t even have a profile picture, yay me!):
Thanks for all the praises! A lot of them also go to a friend whom I have talked with about this whole matter for a long time already. She just pointed out to me today that we have become Fili/Kili experts somehow and I like to think that way. So this wasn’t so hard to me at least, I actually wrote half of this after my first screening and the second half after I saw the movie the second time. It all occured rather naturally to me after already doing all the pre-thoughts before even entering the cinema.
See, I have noticed there are two groups when it comes to Fili and Kili, the “omg, hot!” group and the “how are they even supposed to be dwarves?” group. Since I didn’t want to be pushed in group 1 by group 2 I started to write this a bit out of anger, but it became more elaborate later on. Maybe it helps both groups to go beyond their prejudices?
Thanks for reading and thanks for liking it. You flatter me a bit. :) And who knows, maybe I am an ardent Tolkien admirer myself, but just haven’t appeared on the Internet yet. ;) Oh, all the technical stuff!
That’s it for now. More maybe later!
fedoralady said:
Archedcory1, I once wrote a newspaper column about suffering from TIS (Technologically Impaired Syndrome). I guess the judges could relate, as I won an award in the AP contest for it. ;)
My point is, I am no techno-wizard by any means, but I do know good, thoughtful writing when I see it and you’ve done that here. I am also a former teacher and I like encouraging ability and talent when and where I can.
You will learn the technical stuff in time, as I have. This TIS-afflicted female not only has her own blog, she also makes fanvids and creates fanart and so I’m not doing too badly. ;) If I can do it–you can do it!! And I am still learning and growing and thrilled–in my case–that this old-ish dog can learn new tricks. :D
Look forward to reading more of your stuff. I am an ardent Armitage aficionado and appreciate those who recognize this terrific guy is so much more than a handsome face. He’s tremendously talented and versatile and gives his all to his roles. After following his career for closing in on six years, it’s a delight to see others recognizing him for his abilities.
And I appreciate what all those hard-working, talented actors bring to the table for these films. :D
archedcory1 said:
Thanks again, will try to cure my “TIS”!
D.J. was almost shocked when I told her that I do find Richard Armitage a rather handsome man but that I for my taste I don’t find him overly attractive at all. Which means I can very much focus on his acting, since his face isn’t doing too much to my senses. ;)
I think it was a relief for her to hear that not everybody is drooling after him. :)
Also I have to admit I never knew that guy before the Hobbit (I am no movie/TV geek at all and I think most of his stuff hasn’t been shown in my country either), but now I feel like I should get to know his work better. After seeing so many pictures of Thorin beforehand I never thought he would leave me so speechless when finally seeing the movie!
fedoralady said:
LOL Your views would be most welcome to Richard, who has never been comfortable with a lot of emphasis being placed on his looks and hotness anyway. He really does want the focus to be on his performance and I am thrilled audiences are responding so positively to him as Thorin (he’s up to 4 on the starmeter on IMDB).
I have never been disappointed in his work, even with the production otherwise left something to be desired. ;)
I discovered him watching Robin Hood on BBC America and was impressed with what he did with what could have been the typical cardboard cutout henchman. Which led me to investigate his other work. I have had to result to some extreme means to see some of his work, but I now have pretty much all of it on DVD. I take away something fresh and new each time I re-watch one of his performances. :D
D.J. said:
ArchedCory, your reaction to book Thorin was totally understandable, but your being unaffected by RA was a welcome change of pace. I wasn’t entirely expecting that you would like Thorin or RA after the film, so it speaks all the more to his abilities that you do.
archedcory1 said:
Anybody who would NOT like movie-Thorin doesn’t have a heart.
ElizaAnderson said:
Martin Freeman plays Jack in “Love Actually” – which makes it hilarious to see him as Bilbo, since Jack is a stand-in for actors in sex scenes, so he and this girl he falls in love with are naked for most of the movie – and also he plays Arthur Dent in “Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.” I think Arthur Dent is in some ways a similar character to Bilbo, really – he’s just living his quiet life, doing nothing special despite once perhaps having higher aspirations, until suddenly he gets dragged off onto an adventure.
But in his case the adventure is forced upon him, since some aliens are demolishing Earth to make way for an intergalactic bypass or something.
Is it weird that I actually find Richard Armitage better-looking in the full beard and long hair than how he looks normally? I don’t even like long hair on men. Well, whatever. His acting was incredible – I think “Robin Hood” is on Netflix right now, I might go watch it to see how he does as a bad guy.
(Same and only reason I wanted to see that new “Three Musketeers” movie: Because I’ve never seen Orlando Bloom play a bad guy and I was curious. I still haven’t seen it, however.)
Anjy Roemelt said:
Oh, do! I’m not at all an OB-Fan, but Buckingham totally blew me. Also, the film is absolute fun, for the audience as much as, obvoiusly, for the actors.
mmgilchrist said:
No, it’s not weird to find Richard Armitage more attractive as Thorin. I’ve seen him in a few things before now, and thought, “Pleasant enough, but nothing to write home about”. But, somehow, as Thorin… I’m not even 100% straight, but that Dwarf…! It’s not just the looks, it’s the bearing, the attitude, the aura of tragedy that clings to him, the whole personality. He’s quite magnificent. I’m not looking forward to film 3 (though I know I will love him in gilded armour going berserkir with his axe!), but my penchant for hurt/comfort will kick in…
swordwhale said:
Me too. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
Will I then have to change the Fil & Kili “landships figureheads” (dashboard guardians) on my van?
I, for one, am going to have a very weird moment watching Smauglock and Jawn baggins…
mmgilchrist said:
I’m just going to be busy working out ways of rescuing and tending our lovely Dwarves. One of my best friends is a surgeon, so she can give me professional advice… (Dwarves are far more resilient than humans, so should mend better).
ElizaAnderson said:
You have a point…and I certainly do have a thing for withdrawn male characters with tragic backstories and secretly soft insides. So it’s probably that.
mmgilchrist said:
I don’t think there’s much “secretly soft” anywhere in Thorin, but his past and his future are profoundly tragic. I, for one, would prefer him to live to enjoy the results of his quest, and be king. (Fanfic exists for a reason…)
ElizaAnderson said:
Oh, I don’t know. You can see when Bilbo decides to leave and is giving that little speech to Bofur that he feels bad about what he said before, and of course after Bilbo saves him he actually SMILES and HUGS him, which is kind of a big deal since he’s not the smiley or hugging type. Plus the concern over his nephews when there’s danger, and when he’s like, “Ori, no!” when they’re being chased by the Orcs. He’s a bit of a softy, he just doesn’t act like it most of the time. But it’s there.
ElizaAnderson said:
Thank you for this! I’m already in despair over having to see the three of them die in the third movie… Although certain things about the movie annoyed me (mostly that plot-point with Azog, who was actually killed by Dain Ironfoot before any of this story takes place), I thought the characterization was wonderful. Thorin is certainly more likeable in the movie – probably because you get more of the “why he is the way he is” than you do in the book (until you read the appendices in “Return of the King”), and also because of Richard Armitage’s fantastic acting. I had never even heard of him before this movie, but he’s so intense, he’s marvelous at the nuances of facial expression – and he also has a lovely baritone, such that the Song of the Misty Mountains has been stuck in my head nonstop since seeing the movie the first time. (All of them did a great job with that – those chords are absolutely delicious. Basses and baritones, how I love them.)
As much as I thought I noticed in my first two screenings, after reading this I’ll be watching even more carefully next time. :)
swordwhale said:
I think Azog remains (rather than being Bolg, as in the book) for continuity for the part of the audience who has not read the book. Having Azog in the flashback, and Bolg in the Battle of Five Armies would just be confusing in filmland. One orc to rue them all…
ElizaAnderson said:
Well, I guess that’s true. I mean, Azog is in the book, and he really did kill Thror, but he’s only mentioned in passing. And then in the appendices at the end of “Return of the King,” you find out that he also killed Dain’s father and was then killed by Dain. Kind of taking away some of Dain’s glory here if Thorin gets to kill him in the movie, but let’s face it, the audience (even me, as annoying as I find this plot point) will be upset if he doesn’t – after all the enmity and tension being built up between them so far.
On a different topic:
Just as totally amazing the third time. This movie needs to come out on DVD already so I can watch it several thousand more times.
mmgilchrist said:
One of my work colleagues was saying today that when she went to see the film with a friend, the friend had said, “Who is that? He does that brooding look like Richard Armitage, but his nose is different, and he’s short…” My colleague had her work cut out convincing her that it really was Richard Armitage!
D.J. said:
Hey, you have a profile pic now! And you did it without deleting the whole blog. Congrats! (in reply to ArchedCory)
archedcory1 said:
It still doesn’t show up when I open the page though. ;)
mmgilchrist said:
I’ve got one, too, now. It’s a coin I always wear in a brooch: Julian softened me up towards short men with beards… ;-D
Gratiana Lovelace said:
Loved this detailed and insightful review! I, too, noted the special bond between Thorin and his nephews–his only heirs. It was especially poignant when at at least two fight scenes in the film, Thorin has lost sight of Kili and Thorin calls out to Kili mournfully–fearing that he won’t get an answer. Then the relief Thorin expresses via a deep exhale when Kili is found his touching.
Legacies can only live on if we have someone to carry them into the future. And Kili and Fili are Thorin’s only legacy standard bearers. Perhaps their familial and Heirs of Durin connection is a “foretelling” of what is yet to come in the later films regarding these three. But, no spoilers.
jmurray said:
Thanks DJ and archedcory1 for a great analysis of these facinating relationships. I can’t imagine anyone not thinking this triad is important to the story. You can’t have a coming of age/Quest story without these three symbolic characters. It would take a whole new essay to discuss how multilayered and integral these three are in developing those themes so I won’t overdo here. PJ’s understanding of human nature, myth and escapism is well utilized in the script and the “feel” of these characters and thier importance to one another is so subtlely and poignantly expressed in the datail of microexpression and wordless interactions that go on through the movie. I think they look just like they are supposed to look, I have heard the argument about the appearance of the dwarves but in a real sense it is neccesary to humanize the appearance of these nonhuman characters in order to convey thier emotional character content to a human audience, most of whom truly are not Tolkien experts. Those of us who love to read will always find and treasure our own images of these characters and I think those images are as diverse as the individuals who imagine them. Movies cater to an even larger audience however, many of whom wil never read any book, never mind Tolkien. It’s the underlying story and symbology that are important here, as long as PJ can engage the viewers long enough to draw us in and get us to empathize with the characters then the story has relevance and value to every individual on whatever level they are engaged. Some viewers will never explore the content further than the cinema experience and that is ok. Other viewers will go back to the books again or perhaps for the first time and discover thier own individual relationships with the characters. I think PJ has succeded marvelously with this. My 13 yo son, who actually has difficulty reading and usually finds it a chore has been inspired enough to read The Hobbit, has nearly finished it and actually engaged with me in several in depth and meaningful discussions about the relationships and symbology in the story. Says he wants to read TLOR trilogy next. This is a miracle I thought I would never see! Now my 15 yo has seen the movie twice and says “you know mom, that’s really a kickass story and Fili and Kili remind me of us and Thorin is just like Jack (my oldest son)” I know it’s my personal story but isn’t that what makes this story such a treasure? It’s ability to engage us enough to engage one another in dialogue. For me Thorin reminds me of those aspects of my father I most relate to and Yes he is so like my oldest son I almost see him as such. Fili and Kili are so much the younger and middle child and thier interactions inspire the same complex emotions I experience as a parent of young men. I was saddened that none of the interviews really approached these questions with Aidan and Dean. Richard, as usual is adept at turning the sex appeal question aside and refocusing on the content and complexities of the character. I hope that Aiden and Dean are more successful as the story develops and interviewers are able to get past the physical appearance and more interested in the motivation and emotional context of the characters. I think the developement of Bofur’s character in the movies is intrigueing and worth exploring more minutely. All the dwarves have been so meticulously well crafted and detailed by PJ and the team that it would be a shame to miss this in the discussions as well. of course I could go on about this forever but I’m going to be kind and stop here. Thank you again PJ for giving us a forum for these thought provoking discussions into the story and characters.
D.J. said:
Thanks June for your thoughts. Your personal experiences are very interesting and even sort of touching to read about. I also hope we get some juicier interviews with the rest of the cast. Do let me know if you find some of that sort. I’m swamped with hobbit headlines and haven’t the time to view/read most of them now.
Constanza said:
It was amazing the analysis you did about the relationship of this three dwarves. Now I have another motive to watch the movie again, because of the things I didn’t notice and that you pointed out. I’m looking foward to another post like this and to the other movies.
IntrovertedAnalyst said:
This was a beautiful and amazing essay. I loved what the film did with Fili and Kili; thank you so much for articulating why! And yeah, probably all anyone is going to take away is that they’re exceptionally attractive- which they absolutely are- but it’s really nice to see how much character development they got. I remember noticing how agitated Thorin was during the debacle with the stone giants, which put a huge smile on my face because it was kind of obvious that something about that group disappearing gutted him in a way that we hadn’t really seen before. And of course a good part of that is attributable to his leadership, but I’m pretty sure that the possibility of losing family played a role as well. Basically everything about their interactions- the glances and so on- was amazing.
Éowyn said:
Thank you for sharing this wonderful essay!! I really love the film and my favourite characters are: Thorin, Fili and Kili.
Clarissa said:
Wonderful article. I was like you, Kili and Fili were my favorites in the book, for the same reasons. So they were always the dwarfs I was looking most forward to see in the film.
I found a lot of little moments of characterization in the film, like you did. A lot of lovely subtle moments between the heirs of the house of Durin that showed they had close relationships with each other. A lot of little moments, looks or proximity.
I too noticed Thorin’s reaction to the stone giants. As I was watching, and already knowing Fili is his nephew, it was obvious he was quite gutted by the idea of his death and Kili of course, looked devastated when the walking mountain separated them. If I recall Fili also called out for Kili when that happened too. Also of course when Thorin was injured fighting Azog, Fili was, in sort of a reverse of the earlier Stone Giant scene, obviously very worried about Thorin.
I also think there is a little look between Thorin and Kili right after Thorin arrives at Bag End, I think Kili is standing in front of the fire place and Thorin walks over and Kili turns and looks at him. And of course the times he has to stop him from throwing himself into a dangerous situation, but I think it’s fair to say Kili’s intentions are good – he’s just inexperienced. Even his scoldings have a sort of familiarity to them though – he’s not talking to someone he only knows in passing and is annoyed at. It’s someone he knows very well and is annoyed at. :) Everyone knows those are different things. :)
I was pleasantly surprised at how lovable Kili was(I expected to like him, but I wasn’t sure what attitude they’d give the character, hotshot or emo, and he was neither, and something much better, imo, he was eager, friendly and impetuously brave in a way that seemed very natural, he’s a little naive but his intentions are good). He really came across rather vibrantly considering the relatively few scenes there were available for characterization. I was impressed. He’s a good fighter too, inexperienced but good, the way he stopped the Goblin’s arrows with his sword, which almost seemed to surprise himself and then grabbed for the ladder that enabled him to block more arrows and then he and the other were able to use it as a weapon against the goblins and get themselves across the gap in the bridge. That showed some quick thinking in the heat of battle, not bad at all considering his relative lack of experience.
I think they are going to do a good job of making the fate of these three characters absolutely gut wrenching when the time comes.
swordwhale said:
I agree with your insights into Kili’s character. I’m old enough to see beyond the smouldering beefcake and into character. Aidan seems to have had a great time doing this; showing us a young, enthusiastic, sometimes goofy (his thought balloon should often be OMG! and WTF?!?) but ultimately heroic character.
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Tinnuwen said:
This was a very, very, very good read – thank you so much for sharing it! It shows the depth of the characters and their relationships to each other incredibly well! :)
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Joshua Ong said:
Good piece. I actually thought the dwarves’ representation in the movie was wonderful. I was wondering how I was gonna differentiate one from the other, especially lesser knowns such as Bifur, Oin, Dwalin etc. Somehow or other, the brilliant Hobbit Team got this new fellowship up and going. Brilliant movie, and good write too. Cheers!
saraleee said:
Thanks for this terrific analysis! You’ve pointed out so many subtle details and added to my enjoyment of the film. I think it’s so important in a movie to show the human relationships and interactions, because that is the heart of any story. With a crew of 13 dwarves, it is a challenge to show the quality and nature of those relationships but there are many moments layered in.
I think that a lot of what makes a character appealing has to do with the positive qualities they display, like loyalty and heart. Kili, Fili and Thorin are family, and the way they care about one another is what makes them very attractive.
archedcory1 said:
You all flatter me so much! I had a smile on my face during my whole work day today. I really did nothing else than writing down my thoughts and now even TORn linked this. This is ridiculous. :)
The lovely thing is: I’ll watch this movie for the fourth time tomorrow and even I will see it through different eyes now. Thanks!
Hannah said:
I really agree with this article! Fili and Kili have always been my favorite dwarves from the first moment I read the book. I also understood the same things you did, but you put it very well, and made it clear. Good defense of the three. Good point for our team!
Martine said:
This is just one of the many reasons why I love this site. Open minded people who are able to appreciate the books & movies for what they are, rather than fighting about ‘what’s right’ This was a great read. I’m not really a Tolkien-expert (I’ve only read The Hobbit) and these kind of articles really help me to dig further in Tolkien’s world. Loved the pointed out details. I missed some of these when watching it, so will definately go watch it again :D
Richie said:
They’re also the three out of all the dwarves who die at the end of the saga. Maybe they’re being good-looking is supposed to make it more heart-wrenching for the audience when they die.
archedcory1 said:
That definitely is another thought I had: Make people crush on them, give them much screentime and make them loveable… it will be even more painful when they die. After this first movie, who would cry after Oin or Nori if they died? Exactly!
hotdwarflovin said:
ME! I adore Nori! haha
Heike said:
Funny that you think that way. I am actually more angry at Peter Jackson for making them so lovable and fascinating characters because I will be totally upset when they die in the movie….:-( I totally loved the first movie and find it so far much better as the book (I never like the hobbit too much, more a fan of Lord of the Rings). I am not even sure I want to see the third movie when they all die or watch it more than once. Imagine, Aragorn had died in the third movie…. Awful! Who wants to buy the DVD and watch it again? I still have that tiny bit of hope that PJ just lets them live?! Who would be hurt by that?
D.J. said:
I know I would lose all interest in the films if PJ changes the ending to Happy Ever After.
archedcory1 said:
I would be hurt by them surviving and I look very much forward to their death scenes… ALTHOUGH I am a huge fan of the three Heirs. Is there anything wrong with that?
swordwhale said:
I was born the year LOTR was, and read this stuff in 1978. I’ve also done a lot of art and writing on the subject. I’ve also always identified with the Elves. Then WETA did this ridiculously incredibly awesome job of designing 13 Dwarves. GAAAAAAAAAH!!! They’re perfect! All of them. Diverse, interesting, gorgeously wrought.
Then there were these three; Yes, I had that “Dwarves?!? those are Dwarves?!?!” reaction. These were not the Dwarvesw I had tried (and mostly failed) to draw all these years. These were not the stodgy bearded guys in much of fantasy illustration.
These were awesome. All of them.
I had to think about the logic of Thorin and Fili and Kili.
First: film, a visual medium. In the book, it is enough to give us a list of rhyming and sound-alike names. We can fill in the blanks from our own experience, from the look of people we know. In the film, we need to see the characters and empathize with them. And we need to put real guys in workable makeup. We also need diversity; here we have some old guys, some middle aged guys, some warrior guys, some slightly geeky guys… oh yeah, and do you really want all those fangirls to keep obsessing over vapid tales about boys with pointy teeth and no frontal lobes (you get those when you grow up, at about 21 or so, vampires never get them)? No, we want them to READ the Hobbit, and maybe LOTR… or at least be introduced to the wonders of Middle Earth.
Second: pedomorphism, neoteny, see also; juvenilization. A Golden Retriever puppy looks like a wolf puppy.. then they grow up and look different (the Golden actually still has a lot of puppy characteristics: short muzzle and floppy ears, and baby brains, which is why they are “biddable” and easy to train, while the less pedomorphic Siberian husky is more wolflike in its attitude). Baby gorillas look frighteningly like baby humans. Then they both grow up and look different. Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits and mere mortal Humans in Middle Earth would all look very much alike as babies or tots.. or kids. The Elves get to, like, 30 and don’t change. Hobbits and Humans and Dwarves go on past 30 and continue to change. Dwarves, perhaps because they live longer, get gnarlier and knobbier like tree roots as they get older. As young guys, they would look precisely like Kili and Fili. Note too, that Kili is a bit more “Dwarvish” (bigger ears, bigger nose, more hair) than Kili, who still looks more like a young human.
I truly love all the designs for the characters. All of the actors have done a fine job of emoting past the latex and yak hair and giving us characters we can love.
mmgilchrist said:
The long nose is also, in book canon, Fili’s most distinctive feature.
mmgilchrist said:
Also, it’s a kind of fairy tale, peopled with archetypal figures: in fairy tales, the Princes are always handsome.
Heike said:
Yes and they DON’T die at the end – PLEASE!!
hotdwarflovin said:
Reblogged this on Welcome to my Halls! and commented:
Fili and Kili are more than hotties! They’re integral to the story!
I’d love to have a flashback to Erebor before they set out on the Quest with Dis and Thorin, and Dis absolutely refusing to let them go with their wayward uncle- and Thorin being wary of taking them- but begrudgingly allowing Fili to tag along. Then Kili bursts in and complains about being left behind, and a huge family argument ensuing. For me, Fili has the sense that he’s been on a few journeys, albeit small ones, whilst it seems that this is Kili’s first big adventure. Here we may draw some parallels between him and ‘Mr. Boggins,’ which is why I think they have a good rapport with each other, aside from Kili’s teasing- which may be due to his status as a privileged young dwarf prince. Kili’s relief at seeing Bilbo when he steps of of the woods at the end of the film after being lost is a wonderful moment, as it displays clearly that Kili actually identifies with Baggins- that he still has someone as inexperienced as he is in many ways on the journey with him- and also marks a turning point for many of the dwarves’ view of him- the inspiration he gives to them is evident in Bombur, Balin, Ori and Fili and Kili’s eyes as it pans to them, even if Thorin still cannot see it.
It was exciting for me to see Fili’s pipe design as Fili was smoking before the Battle of Azanulbizar flashback sequence, which is richer than even Thorin’s is- cementing subliminally to the watcher that these dwarves are always going to be of a noticeably higher status than the others in Thorin and Co.- they have the finer things in life, and always have. I think the scene where Fili and Kili were teasing Bilbo about the orc attack at night and Thorin’s reaction to that highlighted his annoyance that sometimes his nephews could take a lot for granted, and this could all be snatched back from them at any point on this quest.
It’s worth noting that Kili has more of an interaction with his uncle than Fili BECAUSE he looks like him- he resembles his mother Dis- Thorin’s sister, whereas Fili resembles his father- who evidently is blonde. I think this is why Thorin identifies and protects young Kili more; we can see this at many points during the film as they are often filmed together- whilst Fili steps back. This is because not only is Kili the rashest of the dwarves with all his young energy bursting out of him and putting him into some dangerous situations, but I think that he reminds Thorin of himself even more so than Fili does- in his manner, in his looks, and being the younger sibling of two brothers. In my novel A Dwarven Love Story: The Beginning (http://archiveofourown.org/works/590184), I made a conscious decision to write Thorin and Frerin’s relationship as mirroring Kili and Fili’s for this reason.
I was also completely heartbroken (in the best way) at the separation they face when in the stone giants scene- completely great to watch, and the expression on their faces say it all. They’re no longer safe traveling together, no matter how much they protect each others’ backs- after Thorin chastises them for joking about orc packs- this is the first danger they’ve experience apart from each other.
I also loved the author’s point in this about there being more weight on Fili’s shoulders with responsibility- and I’d like to see how this plays out more. He certainly seems to be more reserved, and as a better hold on himself than Kili- perhaps he knows to reserve his youthful energy in case his uncle should fall, and he’d have to lead the Quest? Who knows what Thorin and he have discussed.
Something really interesting to note which I hadn’t thought about since I saw it again in 2D last night- my friends said that their relationship really reminded her of Fred and George Weasley’s- which I thought was absolutely brilliant! And…. they really do!
I’m looking forward to seeing how their relationship grows in the coming films, and of course, dreading the final one.
archedcory1 said:
Thank you for some really interesting ideas! I also went to the cinema again yesterday and yet found new aspects about their whole relationship! I feel like I should re-write this essay all over again! :D
I would also absolutely be thrilled to see Dis before she let’s them go. I was already expecting it for this movie, but luckily we still have two ahead!
Heike said:
So interesting to read all your ideas here. I have so far only seen the film once (regretably), dan’t wait to see it again and looking for all the details. I get the feeling I have to see it in Slow Motion to catch it all. Sometimes I regret the quick timing of modern movies, so hard to catch details. I can’t wait for the extended version to come out, probably there will be more deepness to the characters in that one (hopefully).
nonniemous said:
One other moment that’s barely visible, but I’m about 80% certain that when the dwarves enter Rivendell and the Elves ride in that Thorin shoves Kili into the middle of the group as Bofur grabs Bilbo to pull him into the middle. Bombur, Kili, and Bilbo seem to the be in the middle, and for a moment, Thorin, who I would guess was pushed there by Dwalin, who seems to be his champion. But Thorin isn’t going to stay in the group, he’s going to step forward. (The shove is much more obvious in the Video blog, but alas, I don’t remember which one it was in.)
Thanks for this; I’m tired of defending the “hot dwarves” to people as well. Film is a different medium, and what works in a book doesn’t always work on film. Though I freely admit to being an Aidan Turner fan prior to all this (his work as Mitchell on Being Human was amazing), and yes, the man is gorgeous, but he’s also a damned fine actor. And seriously, I don’t think the rest of the cast would be teasing him so mercilessly about being the “Boy Band Dwarf” if they didn’t respect him as an actor and Kili as a character.
Kili and Fili are very much the “Heir and the Spare,” and they are very aware of their places in Thorin’s wake–but they are also unaware, too, of just what they have lost. Thorin *knows* what they had once, the wealth and power so great that ELVEN KINGS paid homage. But Fili and Kili have no concept of that kind of wealth and power, having grown up as somewhat itinerant princes of a wandering diaspora, where they were workers in iron far more than gold. They aren’t nearly as conscious of their “place” in society as Thorin and Dwalin and Balin are. This, too, informs their performance very brililantly–and it may be, too, why in the end, they are not as drawn to the gold as their compatriots. So Kili’s somewhat feckless nature makes sense–and I love the way Fili indulges him and has fun, too. Of course, it’s Fili who doesn’t want to fess up to Thorin about the ponies, further to fall in his uncle’s estimation.
archedcory1 said:
Also the pony remark is something I just realized yesterday. Who would have really thought there would still be so much to discover about two young dwarves “without character” even after multiple viewings?
I am glad FIli got that line. It shows his character really well. Fili doesn’t get himself into trouble with Thorin, Kili does. But only because he doesn’t know any better. ;)
The whole “home” aspect is something that started to interest me also!
nonniemous said:
the pony remark is something I just realized yesterday.
My third viewing of the movie was with a bunch of teens and twenty-somethings, mostly guys, and I think they all lost it at that line. And after hte movie it was one of their favorites to quote. “Nah, let’s not worry Thorin.” ;-)
I think the subtleties are there in the movie, but it wasn’t until I went the third time that I quit looking for what was and wasn’t in the book and just enjoyed the movie for itself. I’d loved it from the get go, but my appreciation for it grows.
In my personal canon, Fili and Kili have no father becuase Dis wanted them to be Durin’s heirs, and Thorin’s, and no one else’s. So who fathered her sons wasn’t as important as the fact that through her, they could be Thorin’s heirs. And I think, too, that since Frerin was younger than Thorin that a lot of Thorin’s reactions to Kili are rooted in that older brother protectiveness that gets hardwired into siblings after a while. Not to mention he’s got to face his sister if he comes back without her kid!
Anjy Roemelt said:
I went to see it for the umpteenth time yesterday and specially concentrated on that Rivendell-scene. You’re right: KIli is counted among the “kids” along with Ori and Bilbo and shoved to the inside of the protective ring. Must have ailed him ;-).
Filien said:
I don’t think I will be able to recover from their deaths. I cried at the bit where Kili gets separated from Fili at the stone giants so god knows what I will be like at the Battle of the Five Armies.
Heike said:
Exactly, I don’t really see how PJ can do that to us all. I mean, why not just change it? Disney changed the Arielle story to a Happy End. Would that really be soo bad?
D.J. said:
Personally, the last thing I would want is for them to make Tolkien into Disney.
Heike said:
It was just meant as a universal known example and I don’t think if these three survive it would make it into a Disney movie? I just can’t see the sense in them dying, not even in the book.
archedcory1 said:
If all the heroes survive then that’s quite Disney-like. Sense? Does death ever make “sense”? People die, especially if they happen to go to battle. It’s just the way of life.
J said:
Nice essay!
I personally do like all three of these dwarves alot, and this is really insightful. I can’t wait to see the movie, it’s driving me crazy that I haven’t seen it yet. Although Thorin isn’t the most likeable character in the book, I remember that I cried my eyes out when the three of them died.
archedcory1 said:
In case anybody cares: I made some alterations to the essay. I found some new aspects again and wanted to have them added.
Clarissa said:
I really liked your additions. Another thing a lot of people noticed in subsequent viewings(I haven’t had a chance to see it again myself yet) is that when they are climbing the trees to escape the wargs, Kili helps Fili pull himself up on the tree.
I did think it was funny when Thorin added that “Don’t take your eyes off them” – definitely a sign he knows these two. :) I do wonder what the heck they were doing that they managed to miss the Trolls taking the first two ponies, kind of a big thing to miss. What do two young dwarves who are supposed to be watching ponies get up to to distract them that much. Looking at bugs? Searching for a pet rock? Wreslting with each other?
‘ Often he sees things first and immediately reports to Thorin because it is important to him that the information comes from HIM ”
I remember this from last time but wouldn’t it make sense that if Kili sees things first he’d be the one to report them to Thorin? Whether it’s important it comes from him is almost besides the point because it would logically be him reporting stuff he’s seen.
And to be fair, Fili was as responsible for losing the ponies as Kili was, so if Fili didn’t want to “bother” Thorin with it, it was likely as much to keep himself from getting into trouble as anything else.
archedcory1 said:
The thing with this movie is: It’s so fast-paced and there are so many hairy little men in there that it gets really hard to keep track of who is who. ;) Thanks for the trees, will look out for that next time!
I suppose they did just about everything, but NOT watch the ponies. You gave some really fine examples of more important things, haha. They definitely didn’t stand there staring at the ponies the whole time.
This is actually exatly what I meant with this sentence. Did I get it through wrong?
And of course Fili was also responsible for losing the ponies. But he rather has Thorin yell at him than at his little brother, so the most important thing (besides keeping Thorin out of trouble) is to protect his brother, not himself. Isn’t that cute? :)
Clarissa said:
Oh I agree, I’m just saying I didn’t see anything in the pony incident that suggested Fili’d rather get yelled by Thorin himself than let his little brother get yelled at too. IMO it looked like a straight forward “Thorin’s gonna be pissed at US, let’s not tell him unless we absolutely have to”, I really didn’t see anything that suggested he was thinking “well it’d be fine if Thorin yelled at me, but I don’t want Kili to get into trouble”. I didn’t get a sense of anything out of that part of the scene other than very understandable self-preservation.(Can definitely understand why he wouldn’t Thorin mad at him LOL)
I just don’t want to over-read into things. Older brother or not, most older siblings don’t want to get yelled at if they don’t have to either, so if they’re keeping something themselves and a younger sibling did from say, their uncle – it’s probably because they don’t want to get yelled themselves as much as anything else that might come into it.
Tiffany Burton said:
Great essay! Thank you for your wonderful insights and observations. Fili and Kili are two of my favorite characters as well; Fili is my absolute favorite and I was thrilled when Dean O’Gorman was chosen to play him. I also love the relationship they share and look forward to seeing more of that bond in the next movies. Thank you for giving me moments to look for when I go to see The Hobbit again!
zu said:
That is a very good point well made, congratuwelldone :D
I think this is actually the thing that makes the film(s) superior to the book (and I can already hear screaming of a thousand angry tolkienists). The characterization, I mean. The Hobbit was always my least favourite ot Tolkien’s books, because, while it provided a fun story and a glimpse of an amazing world, there were just no likeable characters. The first couple of times I read it, I didn’t even bother remembering all of the dwarves’ names – there was Thorin (who I found annoyingly bufoonish) and company (with no discernable personalities). I mean, I know it was meant as a children’s book, and children’s books are meant to be uncomplicated, but even at five, when I read it for the first time, I didn’t like that. How was I supposed to get emotionally invested in the characters if, when they got killed off, it was mentioned in passing, *no more than one sentence*. It’s been years since I’ve read it last, and I still remember that bit.
So, yeah, sorry for getting ranty there. The point is, I never thougth that there would come a day when I’d prefer the adaptation over the source material. And the film not only made me like the characters – it made me care about them. Because all of the dwarves had distinct personalities; Thorin was not a caricature; Fili and Kili were adorable in their brotherliness and eagerness to prove themselves (also, I’m not ashamed to admit, because Aidan Turner ;)); and all of the things that you wrote about. And the fact that they are doomed from the start only makes me care more – because I know that in this film we *will* get more then a passing mention.
Um, now, I’ll just quietly go about my business, while fire and brimstone rains down upon me for disparaging one of the most beloved works of literature ;)
Thank you for that wonderfull essay!
D.J. said:
I have similar complaints about the original book in terms of characterization being undeveloped. I don’t think I will have to worry about the most dynamic part of the battle of five armies happening off camera as it did in the story. That being said, the style of the original is so different than modern cinema, and there are some things that Jackson fails at in comparison, like quaint humor, which the book was full of, but which is far more effective in the hands of Tolkien.
swordwhale said:
fire and brimstone, LOL!
Um, I have always been more of a fan of LOTR than the Hobbit, perhaps for the very reasons you mention. I didn’t dislike it, I just liked the epic detail of LOTR better. So I suppose I like the Hobbit film better in most ways; it has had a chance to open up and expand the Hobbit tale, show us all the stuff we knew was there. And to develop the Dwarves in a marvelous way. You should know, that I have always sided with the Elves, that’s who I drew, painted, wrote, played in D&D. Durn, Dwarves, I was surrounded by them in my real world (the local folk of Pennsylvania seem to be either Hobbits or Dwarves)… gaah! Then the first images from The Hobbit showed up…
“That’s a Dwarf?!?” Well, yes, it is, and all of them are, and they are awesome, not only in appearance but character. Thanks to PJ and WETA for visualizing beautifully this classic tale. And to the actors for embodying such great characters.
Heike said:
Totally agree with your opinion about the Hobbit – it lacks detail and dialogue. The dwarves are more or less just a bunch of people that are undistinguishible from one another and grumpy and not very nice characters to boot. I liked Bilbo up to the point when he stole the Arkenstone. Not a very nice thing to do in my opinion. It will be interesting how PJ tells the story. So far I like his version a lot better.
stuffs said:
The dwarf that Thorin was worried about with the stone giants was Fili.
I very much enjoyed your insight to the 3 royals. I have not read the book but everyone in my family has and has basically told me the whole book AND I have watched the animated film so I don’t have any spoilers.
archedcory1 said:
I know it is Fili. But I kept this part in the essay on purpose since it sounds as if Thorin was screaming “Kili”. This is still confusing me, so I decided not to change it. :)
D.J. said:
Listening to it again this weekend, I could not tell either.
Clarissa said:
You know it occurred to me that maybe he wasn’t calling for Kili in worry but to come with him. This was something that directly affected both of them, if Fili was hurt or worse. So he was yelling “Noooo!” because of Fili but then maybe he yelled Kili because he wanted Kili to make his way to him so they’d deal with whatever happened together. (Either that or Richard got the names mixed up again and they didn’t catch it in ADR. LOL) I doubt it but it was just something that occurred to me that might explain it.
Misty said:
To me it also does sound like Thorin screaming Kili, so I checked in the subtitling as well and there it also says ‘Kili’ (at least in the adition of the DVD I have that was published in Hungary). So I am also somewhat confused there.
jenn said:
I loved the insight into their inter-relationships and I agree on almost all counts.
I will be honest – I have made the hot dwarves comment. But for me, the attitude is just as hot, if not hotter, than the appearance. The little things that the actors bring to the characters, the things that bring them to life, are the most attractive traits. The depth that they put into the relationships between one another, the non-speaking interactions, are rather amazing.
It is one of things I love about a PJ movie – he doesn’t just expect the actors to act, he allows them to become their characters. And these three especially have done a wonderful job of it.
D.J. said:
I said something like this long ago. The idea that dwarves can be perceived as “hot” shouldn’t be a bother to anyone as long as you accept that appeal and attraction can be achieved through more than just looks. They would not interest me in the least if that is all there was to them.
archedcory1 said:
Amen!
Heike said:
Well said! Good looks are one thing, but I don’t even noticed so much at the start, but when the characters developed more (especially Thorin) he came over as noble and brave (rescuing Bilbo, although he didn’t like him much and wanting to get his home back (not just the gold) and having this total shock when he sees Azog). I only noticed his good looks really at the end of the movie, because then I got to know the character a bit.
Misty said:
I absolutely agree. I have to admit I did not know the Hobbit before seeing the film, I just went to see it because I loved Lord of the Rings. And when Thorin entered Bag End, I thought wow, hot! But then the way he talked to Bilbo looking down on him, I thought to myself, my goodness, don’t tell me I will have to be watching this arrogant guy for about three hours (in spite of his look). And then as his character elaborated throughout the film, I came to love him because of that.
Clarissa said:
They really did, especially with those little “familal similarities”. I hadn’t really noticed this while watching but saw a couple of gifs and in them, when they are all grouped up surrounded by goblins, Kili and Thorin have almost the same expression. They are both positively glaring up at him. It’s like a perfect “Like uncle, like nephew” moment because Kili was in front of where Thorin was, so he wasn’t doing it just because he saw Thorin doing it. I just thought it was kind of cool to see that kind of thing going on, it shows they must have gone the extra mile to put in those extra touches that mark out why the relationship between these three are different than with the others.
pjyenn said:
kili always at the same camera shot as thorin..leaving fili behind..lol
Heike said:
Can’t wait to watch it again and look out for all these details. But trust PJ, Weta Workshop and the team to really put details in their movies! They are amazing!
J said:
On the subject of Thorin, Fili, and Kili looking “too undwarven”, that seems ridiculous to me. I was listening to a Richard Armitage interview about Thorin a few weeks ago and he was comparing how different some humans are and he made the point that people saying that Thorin’s looks were not dwarven enough was bordering on racism. I think this is a good point because if there is such a great variety in the looks of humans, why not in dwarves?
D.J. said:
I agree. There are some obvious ideals that dwarves seem to hold to consistently, and having long beards is one of them. But just because it is the ideal does not mean that every individual will follow that pattern. Same as our human cultures.
archedcory1 said:
I somewhere read a funny description for Kili’s non-existent beard: It is kind of a rebel thing for human teenagers to grow the very first beard they get. Maybe it is a teenage rebel thing for young dwarves to actually shave it off? Maybe he really just wants to be very cool. I kind of like that approach, haha.
D.J. said:
That is an interesting way to view it. Rebel.
ElizaAnderson said:
I read on Tumblr that it makes sense because he’s an archer – you have to do the arrow-kiss thing, when you’re an archer, and a full beard would probably just get tangled. (I get this funny mental image of Kili with a full beard, shooting an arrow, which gets stuck in his beard so that he goes flying toward the target with it.)
mmgilchrist said:
Knowing Kili, he probably tried that with precisely that result at some point… Hence cutting the beard.
ElizaAnderson said:
Now I have a funny mental image of an arrow getting stuck in his beard, he goes flying past as his brother laughs, and then he stomps back and immediately chops off his beard.
Iris Wolf said:
So I’m not on this site at all and I happen to came to this by chance and my lofe for Fili and Kili but upon reading this I ws pleased to find I am not alone in this! i am not alone who sees the wonders of these characters! all three of them, they are unique, amazing and awesome and admitedly the actors did a fantastic job portraying them! it is.. as I imagined. I loved the book, I loved the first movei and can’t wait for more! thank you for this wonderful insight I’m actually saving this XD
Heike said:
Exactly my feeling. I was so glad I found this. Finally some place to talk about my favourite dwarves and I really like the insights and especially the nice language which unfortunately is not very common at all on the internet (no swearwords and stuff).
lucy0510 said:
Couldn’t agree more! I’m also happy to have the opportunity to talk about my favourite 3 dwarfes, they are indeed unique, and their relationship ist really special, very heartwarming!
Carolina said:
AWESOME text, great arguments… I really enjoy it, congratulations to the author!
Pika said:
Why do they have to die ?? :(
Heike said:
That remains an interesting question, doesn’t it?! I personally can’t find any logical reason for it. I wonder how it would have changed the whole success story of the Lord of the Rings, if Aragorn and/or Frodo had died.
Although you could argue that Frodo dies in a way, but that was a lot different than dying in a battle.
tigrislilium said:
idk. One of Tolkien’s earlier drafts had’m live. Perhaps he just wanted to twist the punishment knife in Thorin’s gut a bit more.
I don’t think now though that all of them can. Final draft has been out for far too long. Better a decently handled series of deaths than a mangled HEA. Especially since CT has so much source material locked away.
Vi said:
Funny thing is: i only got to this site, because I was searching for the song text of Misty Mountains. Thanks to google I got to read this wonderfull essay. Fili and Kili were absoluty my favourite dwarves in the book and the film (and I am a huge Aidan Turner Fan ^^). I noticed that in the scene were Balin was speaking about the battle at Moria he says at one point something about the House of Durin and the camera goes to Fili and Kili. Love those little things. I am going to watch the film again today. So I am very excited to discover more details.
(i am very sorry for my bad englisch!)
ceallaig said:
Pika, I wonder that too … sigh …. I remember reading the book and being ticked as all get out at Tolkien for disrespecting his characters that way. The direct line of the royal house is now dead, and Thorin’s sister entrusted him with her sons’ safety, which task has been failed (ok, through no real fault of Thorin’s, who was mortally wounded at the time). At least one of the boys should have survived to carry on the line, and if I had my druthers, Thorin would survive the last battle too, perhaps wounded to the point that he can’t take the throne, and abdicates in favor of his heir? After all he went through, he should be allowed to survive. But I guess Tolkien was making a point about greed and the pitfalls thereof. But …. it still sucks.
Anyway, excellent character analysis. And I really like the changes they made in Thorin for the film. As Balin said (and this is a being that it takes a LOT to impress, I’d think): “This was one I could follow…. here was one I could call King.”
archedcory1 said:
In fact I found it very respectful of Tolkien to let them die. Maybe the way to describe Fili’s and Kili’s death (only one short sentence) wasn’t most noble, but not the fact they died itself.
They died a real hero’s death there, especially Fili and Kili who must have been SO scared on that battlefield! And just imagine one of them has to see the other brother die first… and still fought til the last breath. Such bravery! I find everything one can interpret in there just so touching… I almost feel like writing a new analysis on that topic alone – before even seeing it in the movie!
I agree it will be physically painful to watch it, but it is a fascinating way to end the stories of those characters. And let just one brother live? Really, I don’t think the surviving one could go on much further without his beloved brother. Either kill both or none.
Thorin I got the feeling almost “had” to die after that whole story.
I know it is an awful thing to say, but I really hope all three die in the movie as well.
katie cook said:
Wait Fili, Kili, and Thorin DIE?!?
And you are an awful person to wish the “hot dwarves” to be dead!
Harvest said:
She’s not awful; it’s what happens. If Peter Jackson changes it that would be awful.
archedcory1 said:
Excuse me, did you even read the above essay?
Thank you… I guess…
swordwhaleTeanna said:
the deaths of Fili and Kili are told rather quickly, in hindsight in the book… because the entire book is like that (remember, kids’ book!). For instance, the whole stone giant scene is, like, two sentences. Tolkien survived the trenches of WW1, watched something like 9 out of 10 of his friends die. His son survived WWII… I can’t imagine his tension till he came home. He is telling a kids’ story, so the gory details are left out, but the story has Power, and pulling its teeth robs it of its mythic power. I felt it was a kind of heroic karma for Thorin to die defending the folk he was going to go to war with. Fili and Kili aren’t some sort of randomness, I feel (though war can be very random)… they are the names we hear a great deal in the story, if we are kids hearing it. If there’s something scary or difficult, get FiliandKili to do it! So we dont’ get a long scene involving their heroic death (and the sacrifice of innocent youth), maybe that would be too much for kids to absorb. But it is there, and you can contemplate it.
I’ve noted a lot of fanart devoted to a young Fili and Kili and Uncle Thorin. Perhaps, since the characters have a very short future, the fangirls are celebrating their past (and according to one source I saw, they’re like, 60 or 70 years old, a fair life by human standards).
Silverwhistle said:
Yes: I think it might have made the moral point more strongly if Thorin had survived, a sadder and wiser Dwarf, and a better King. He has seen his beloved nephews die to protect him: after that, what is the gold worth? Their sacrifice is in vain if he then dies of his wounds.
I love this article, btw: for me, the Heirs of Durin are what makes The Hobbit (book and film) – tragic heroes. Their end is reminiscent of the MacLeans at Inverkeithing in 1651 (Civil War battle in Fife) – “Fear eile airson Eachuinn!” – “Another for Hector!” – 7 men threw themselves in front of the dying Sir Hector (Eachann Ruadh) MacLean to protect him.
mmgilchrist said:
My hurt/comfort complex is already going into overdrive at the thought of pt 3…. “Let me through, I’m a doctor!” (OK, so iI’m a History/Art History doctor, but I do have a good friend who’s a surgeon…!) ;-D
swordwhale said:
I had this awful thought: that somewhere there should be a massive web wake (or celebration of life, if you will) for these three after Hobbit: There and Back Again. I’ve seen a lot of art done of Fili and Kili as kids or young folk, sometimes with the doting uncle… some very nice stuff. It would be fun to put it all in one place to “remember them” “as they were”.
Egad… did I mention they’re fictional….
Daniela said:
First thanks for this beautiful text, loved it very much.
You wrote it is originally written in German, can I find this german text somewhere in the web? A friend of mine isn’t so firm in understanding English but German and I’m sure she also would love this wonderful view of our favourite dwarves.
Thanks and greetings from Germany :-)
Daniela
archedcory1 said:
I hope DJ won’t kill me now for answering in German… ;)
Die deutsche Fassung war die ERSTE Fassung, sprich sie ist bei weitem nicht so umfangreich und ausgearbeitet wie diese hier. Da fehlen viele der wichtigsten Aspekte. Und nein, die existiert nur mehr auf meiner Festplatte. Sorry.
And now back to English before somebody thinks we are talking some secret stuff or whatever. :P
Daniela said:
:-D
ach so, schade.
….but thanks a lot for your (German) answer, archedcory.
Anjy Roemelt said:
O, come on. you are being morbid. Of course, they have to die. It is in-canon and Peter Jackson is anything but twisting facts from the books unless he absolutely has to. But I will hate seeing them die. It’s brutal, it’s unfair , desperately unfair in all possible meanings, and none the less so because it’s what life tends to be. Beloved ones die. Period. After all – “we are not bound for ever in the circles of this world and beyond it is more than memory”. ;-)
Heike said:
Seeing as life is unfair enough, why do books and movies have to be the same? I don’t really want to be reminded of the unfairness of it all when I go to a movie?!! That is what the news are already there for. But of course that is just my very personal opinion.
Dani (@danilutka) said:
I loved your summary about them and I agree on so many points. I looked back at the book (which I’ve read multiple times) after seeing the movie finally and realized how much more I love Thorin’s character in the movie, than in the book. What you pointed out about how the movie flashbacks allow us the chance to understand where he is coming from, was exactly what I felt. It allowed me the chance to sympathize, which makes me love him in a way I couldn’t quite do in the book. And I love the hints at their family bonds. I hope we see more of it in the next two movies. In the book it was all about Bilbo for me. But with these movies I can’t get enough of the Dwarves!
Shellie Kennedy said:
This article is amazing. I noticed all of the same things when watching the film. They were always my favorite characters from the book as well. Richard, Dean, and Aidan all do a fantastic job of accentuating that familial bond. It’s now my favorite part of the movie too :)
Anjy Roemelt said:
I went to see the movie for the seventh time tonight specifically with this article in mind, to check on some of the aspects. Although I thoroughly sympathize with the intention, am madly in love with Thorin and adore Fili and Kili I’d like to keep from being carried away too much lest the flow of fanfiction takes over. I noticed that look Thorin gives when he enters Bagend, which I wouldn’t have noticed but for the article, and I agree it stresses the familiar bond between the three of them – if you know it is there. That Fili and Kili are the sons of Thorin’s sister isn’t mentioned in the film and in the book only at the very end, after they died. and the death of the two young ones is only mentioned long after Thorin’s burial has been described in detail and in a by-the-way sort of line. Being the dark and brooding hero Armitage’s Thorin would draw attention and sentiments toward him, but imhO it’s like with rosting marshmallows: you have to know when to stop. Thorin’s main interest is the quest, Erebor, revenge and his kingdom and I have difficulties imagining him as being intensely occupied with his nephews’ welfare most of the time. For the sake of the love for them and the influence they can – and do – have in my life I’d refrain from overburdening the scenes with emotions which are mine, or any readers’ or audiences’, and not those depicted by the characters. The book is much less romantic in that aspect. Tolkien points out several times that dwarves are no heroes. He sings a different tune in the Unfinished Tales which were written long after The Hobbit was published, there we can see a glimpse of a norse hero Thorin and thus approach Armitage’s version.
Also, I’d be dearly interested in the relationships between the not-so-hot dwarves. The youngest one in the company, courtesy of Peter Jackson, is Ori (in the book it’s just Fili-and-Kili and only the appendices to LoftR specifies that Fili is five years older than Kili). Dori obviously is mothering him a lot up to offering him veggies (!) and at Rivendell he is pushed behind the warriors together with Bilbo. I tried to spy on Kili, where he is situated but couldn’t be quite sure if he is counted among the men or the kids ;-).
Then there is Balin. Like Fili and Kili he has a brother in the company and the two obviously have a strong bond. Now, Balin’s character has been altered a lot by PJ. In the book he is seventeen years younger than Thorin and hardly the fatherly companion he appears as in the movie. But I love this alteration off-canon though it is. Balin calling Thorin “laddie” is reason enough to watch the original version more than once. But Balin and Dwalin are grown men, they have spent years separated, gone their own ways, learned to get along on their own and still preserve that strong bond that shows in the scene they first meet at Bagend. Aside from that and the flashback to the battle of Azanulbizar (Moria) they hardly ever interact and thus provide a good contrast to the kid-brothers Fili and Kili. Still, there is less room for romantic in their relationship and I’m glad that is so. Although a good film – and The Hobbit is a good film – ought to provide opportunity to project emotions onto characters we’d better live out in fantasy than in real life, a good dose of real life can make the projection just what we need when we live the theatre. Balin and Dwalin provide that dose of real life to the higher strung Thorin-Fili-Kili theme and I just wanted to do them justice, too.
Enjoy the movie!
Anjy
archedcory1 said:
Thank you for your insight, Anjy!
I agree on you in many points and I love the interactions between the other dwarves just as much. In fact I am sad we don’t see anything between Oin and Gloin. Come on, they are brothers too! But this essay would have been 10 times as long if I had written about ALL the dwarves, so I restricted myself to this trio.
For example I am also a huge fan of Dwalin, however so far I have not heard anybody complaining about me talking without end about how awesome he is. People do however when I say I love Fili or Thorin in the movie. That was basically my main motivation to write this text. To explain that – to me at least – there is depth in those characters and that is the reason why I adore their portrayal.
Oh, and it is mentioned a lot earlier in the book that Fili and Kili are Thorin’s nephews. Thorin says so himself in the very moment he enters Lake-Town.
Anjy Roemelt said:
You are right, of course. I believe he does it to point out his and his family’s claim to kingship.
I think PJ did an amazing job in individualizing the dwarves. In the book they more or less came over to me as a mass-phenomenon: “the dwarves”, with Balin as the only exception – apart from Thorin. But then, Tolkien wrote the Hobbit with an entirely different motive in mind – at first: to entertain his own children.
I can absolutely relate to your experience that it rises more suspicions to be fond of Thorin, Fili and Kili than, let’s say Ori (I want to adopt him). Is it a mixture of envy and want for justice? Why should the good looking guys get all the girls aka attention and sentiments? Still, they ARE adorable, I fully agree there.
BTW – don’t forget it’s Tolkien’s BIRTHDAY tomorrow. I just learned that Tolkien fans all over the world give a toast to The Professor at 9:00 p.m. their local time.
Claude Flores said:
Brilliantly written article! I’ve read this thrice now, and perhaps, once more before I go and retire to bed (while others will have sappy novels and petty love stories to accompany their dreams, I prefer the company of well-written essays!).
The Hobbit was actually my “gateway movie.” I have never seen any of the LOTR films or have read a sentence out of any of Tolkien’s works. But the film was so fantastic, in casting, writing, and good Lord, the scenery! I just fell in love with the whole franchise immediately. True, when I came upon an online copy of The Hobbit, I was disappointed at its lacking characterization, but I also agree with one of your replies in one of the earlier comments, that Jackson had missed out on Tolkien’s endearing sense of humor in most parts. Hopefully they fix this in the following movies!
One thing that strikes me the most though, is how Tolkien made them BOTH die in the end. Being a Harry Potter fan as well, I find this ending most merciful, compared to how Rowling had broken me by separating Fred and George.
First, as you had replied in a previous comment, I’d rather have the brothers off frolicking together in paradise, than have one left behind to wallow in the memory of his loss. “Either kill them both or not at all.” Would you be able to take the image of Fili, wasting away at the dark annals of Erebor, sitting by the tomb of his brother and blaming himself for not being able to protect him, as what older brothers should do? Or Kili, losing the vibrancy of his eyes that made him so refreshing and appealing to us, and instead he sits upon a cold throne, hands absently stroking Fili’s sword on his lap, and blaming himself for being so weak, so inexperienced, and he’d remember all his recklessness, and he’ll say “If I hadn’t done this, Fili would still be alive,” over and over till he died? The dwarves are a proud race, and I doubt that any of them would commit suicide, but they would long for death. And if Erebor had a king with such a shadow in his heart, it would bode ill for all under his reign.
Not quite the ending we’d wish for them, huh?
Lastly, there’s also the political set back. With Thorin’s death, either one of the brothers will become King of Erebor and of that huge pile of gold in their basement. And now, with the addition of Dain, there are two dwarves who’d like to appeal to their right to rule. Fili or Kili would use their lineage as proof of their worth, however, it just makes sense to say that Dain would use his victory as an excuse. He was the one who brought the army after all. Forgive me, but I cannot bear to think about what either Fili or Kili, young, inexperienced and stricken by grief, would be able to do against a more politically experienced adversary. Dain isn’t evil, but as a dwarf, he is also calculating, and that mountain of gold is just too sweet to pass off. Fili or Kili would either be manipulated as a “puppet king” or driven to exile, which, on their own, they will not survive.
Apologies for the long comment (there should be a post limit in these, oh dear). :) I just have so many thoughts and feelings. I’ve been exposed to many series with brothers or brotherly characters as the protagonists, and my heart has been so thoroughly abused by the circumstances that tear them apart (Supernatural and Merlin, Lord have mercy on my soul).
Anjy Roemelt said:
This makes me think about the term “brother” again ( a favorite subject of mine, too, for various reasons). We are used to point out that “brother” ist just te male version of “sister”. Even our hymnals are being grilled these days for the exclusive use for the male form and altered to gender-neutral sentences like “siblings” or “children”. I strongly object to that up to standing in the pew and singing the old versions. a brother is not just a male sibling! Brotherhood and brotherliness are not just emotions or organizations that could just as well be sisterhoods or siblingsness. In fact, who thinks what is traditionally called “brotherly” is just an expression of siblings-love surely is an onely child. I have three living siblings and four living children, don’t talk to me about love among siblings. “Brother” means something different and it doesn’t even always need a blood-relationship. Books like HP – but also The Eagle of the Ninth by Rosemary Sutcliff, look into that one – depict this subconscious knowledge in most of us. Don’t let them shrinks and scientists wring this knowledge from our souls. It does matter whether we say “we are brothers” or “we are all sibllings”. There is a ring, a call in “brother”, “siblling” does not have and it is good thus. it reminds us of a deeper relationship, of values like honor, sacrifice, loyalty which have been banned to films and books by a thoroughly freudianized and economized society. A relationship between brothers as is described in HP and The HObbit (the movie) holds a torch in the darkness that there is more to life than science can or will tell us.
Sorry for being pathetic, too much coffee in the mroning, not enough sleep in the night, I guess. Went to see The Hobbit last night. :-)
(swordwhale)Teanna said:
Sweet! Fascinating insights! I am an only child, and have had to acquire my “tribe” of brothers and sisters. You nailed some things storytellers cannot forget.
Heike said:
Being a huge fan of Winnetou and Old Shatterhand (bloodbrothers) in my youth I can totally relate to what you are saying here. Some of these PC things are really annoying sometimes.
Misty said:
Wow, Anjy, I just love what you said about “brother”! And in this sense the dwarves are all brothers, and I love that idea as I have always had the feeling they were.
In my youth I also had close friends that I used to call ‘brother’ or ‘sister’ without having blood bonds at all, and after some twenty years there are some I still call ‘sis’ or ‘brother’ and of course not because they are my siblings but because of the brotherhood you mentioned.
Valandhir said:
Very insightful and detailed essay. Thank you very much. You pointed out a lot of details I did not see right away.
random person said:
Thorin, Fili and Kili and my most favourite dwarves they have great personalities and better in the books!
I had no favourite dwarf when reading the book because ofcourse the similarities! The only I kinda cared for was Gloin because before reading the book I watched the Lord of the Rings and loved Gimli.
Ofcourse Thorin,Fili and Kili have to die! Itks in the history of middle-earth and you can’t change it beacause you have to have Dain become king! Tolkien would be upset if this happens but I am really positive that PJ won’t change it!
Lanea said:
Thorin , Kili , and Fili are my favorite dwarves. When you said about Kili that “He cannot imagine a life without Fili,” that made me realize how much they look out for each other.
janegael said:
ArchedCory , this article is just excellent. (And DJ thank you for posting it.) You bring out so much of the interaction between the brothers and Thorin. Those who are only looking at them as either critics of their appearance or because of their good looks miss so much of the characterization that the film brings to us. I like this trio a lot. I read The Hobbit for the first time as a young teen who was deep into sword & sorcery fiction and a huge Conan fan. Thorin was my favorite because I didn’t and still don’t have a problem with men who have a Destiny to fulfill and can be a touch cranky as a result. The death of Thorin and the brothers angered me to the point where I only made fleeting attempts at reading LOTR because I didn’t trust the author. I felt that Thorin had earned his right to sit on the throne and I was furious that the line of Durin was crushed and Thorin’s promis to Dis broken. Dain is Thorin’s cousin which, for me made him only partially a Durin and not a proper heir. I can’t say that the decades have changed my opinion all that much. I am not going to enjoy the last film a lot, meanwhile I can’t seem to stay out of this one, racking up 6.75 viewings so far (baled on another movie to pop next door to see TH yet again.)
I noticed the behavior of the lads when they first enter Bilbo’s home – Fili striding in shoulders back and confident and Kili looking delighted like a kid whose party has not been cancelled. The wore their entitlement like a mantle and their manners left much to be desired. I am positive had their uncle been there the boots would have been scraped outdoors and there would have been no table-walking delivery of ale. I noted Thorin’s elegant table manners and how the lads calmed down and listened when he spoke. Thorin is visibly fond of them as is his deep affection for Balin with his gentle smile as he reminds him that Balin is still a warrior. He loves them all deeply and feels responsible for all the Dwarves and even that soft Hobbit who he hops down to rescue on the mountain pass. He is the King Under the Mountain and he feels that he is Responsible for them all.
You’ve made many good points that there is no need to repeat. I love reading a well written article by someone who has let go of preconceptions and embraced the characters as they are. They are good men, different from one another as night is from day and they complement each other and fit together as cogs in a gear – each one making the others run more smoothly. I strongly suspect that their mother also gave them instructions to watch out for their uncle. After so much loss, Dis would love her brother very much and be worried about the dangers on the road and the Dragon Sickness that he could inherit. I think her parting from them would have been both sad and rousing as she trusted them to look out for one another and for her brother. As when I first read the book I can’t bear to think how shattered she must have been to hear of their loss in battle no matter how heroic it was. Dis has lost a grandfather, father, two brothers and her sons to Smaug…how much can one heart bear?
At the end when the lads do not see Erebor in the distance it is because they are watching the departure of the eagles. They have lived through a battle and a rescue such as no one else in Middle Earth has experienced and are loathe to give up the sight of their saviors. At that moment the eagles are more real to them than Erebor. Thorin has no care for eagles. His first thought is The Hafling. He pulls loose from the arms that helped him up, straightens and decides to pull a wicked joke. On my first viewing I started smiling as he held forth about Bilbo’s shortcomings. Armitage beautifully conveyed the moment by giving Thorin a softened body posture. His shoulders are not tight and square and hard with anger. I was grinning by the time he grabbed Bilbo because I knew Thorin would only so abuse someone he loved. That smile when he gathers Bilbo in would melt the hardest heart. Bilbo is family now. I can hardly wait to see what will happen next.
Jayma said:
I love your take on the lads’ behaviour at Bag End, in particular Kili’s dismay at the possibility of the quest being cancelled! I agree that their conduct would have been less wild had their uncle been present from the start. It is noticeable that Kili is in shot when Thorin knocks on the door. As his nephew and one of his heirs, Kili coud have appeared nonchalant and entitled by continuing with his high jinks even at Thorin’s arrival. However, like the rest of the Company, his demeanour immediately alters when he hears that knock on the door. Even Kili knows that it’s time to behave and knuckle down to business, thus showing the respect he holds for his uncle.
Heike said:
Thanks for writing this especially the part about not being happy about Tolkien killing these characters off and the pain Dis must have felt. I totally fell in love with the movies and the characters and I am dreading the third movie. For me the best thing ever would be if the three of them survive and Thorin takes his place as King under the mountain. And if the Tolkien-fans (I would normally count myself as one, but not in this special case!!) doesn’t like that, maybe PJ could just film two different endings – that way everyone would be happy. Just a thought.
I really would like to be able to watch these movies quite often, but don’t see how you can go through this kind of heartache several times.
tigrislilium said:
Well said! Durin’s Heirs bought that Lonely Mountain in the dearest coin of all. One of them needed to be left alive to claim it. Both to keep Dis from having a shattered heart & genuine justice, as opposed to wasteful punishment, to be seen done.
I just couldn’t as a kid reading it & can’t as an adult re-reading it, see much matter to the Ring War a few decades down the road whether Dain or whichever of Durin’s Heirs ruling is killed in deference of Erebor & Dale against that tentacle of Sauron’s army sent North against them.
Still, it is what it is. They die. It hurts like hell. Knowing movie version of Azog the Defiler gets his wish to see Durin’s line exterminated whether or no he’s involved just grinds a slurry of lemon juice & salt into the wound as he should not even by proxy get what he wants when Durin’s Heirs do not.
Scarthia Haurin Buthergia said:
I got to say you captured the characters so wonderfully. I’ve seen the movie three times now (and going few more) and everytime I notice another little glimpse of look, move, word I’ve missed or haven’t noticed before. Your article helped me a lot to understand them more fully and I thank you for that. I never doubted Thorin, I think of him more heroic and majestic than ever before. Taking care of the hobbit evethough he said he would not be responsible for his fate (putting down the sword at Trollshaw, helping him after the Stone Gians Fight when he almost fell down rescuing Bilbo etc.). He trully is someone even I would gladly follow, a great, loyal leader, a true warrior.
BTW. Has anyone else noticed the way Thorin’s hair change throughout the movie? They are richly brown in the beginning and dark with streaks of silver (even in his beard) at the end (and in the photoshoot as well). So of course has changed the fur on his cloak. Reminds me of Frodo’s changes in LOTR. But mabe I’m just imagining things :)
Thanks again for a great article. I keep getting to know the motivation, the characters so much better.
Anjy Roemelt said:
I payed special attention to that glance of Thorin’s when i went to see the film again, yesterday, and I’m not so convinced now that it is meant to be directed at his nephews. Of course, if you go along the line of Thorin-Fili-Kili relationship it might be interpreted that way, but in the context of the scene it may also be a derisive grin at Bilbo insisting there’s no mark on his door. I fully sympathize with the TFK-line, but I don’t think we are doing proper exegesis here, but eisegesis, putting things into the film instead of getting them out of it.
archedcory1 said:
I am with you here. In fact the first couple of times watching the movie I thought he was either smiling at Bilbo’s remark or smiling because he found Bilbo’s home looking cozy. However a couple of seconds later (it really takes quite a while!) you can see Kili step into this scene from the exact direction Thorin was smiling at.
It might be a far fetch, true, but it did appear to me as if he smiled at Kili (and Fili who stood beside him as can be seen in the next shot). It might just be my way of interpretation. :)
pjyenn said:
i saw it too finally! thorin smiled at kili and hoping also fili at bag end..thanks for the keen eye really!
Chel Miranda said:
This is an amazing essay! I’ve only seen the movie once and I’m dying to watch it all over again and again untill I die! Reading all this and many of the posts made me realize how much I love this whole story and how much I love Thorin, Fili and Kili.
If I were to chose a character, just one of these three that reminds me of myself it would be Kili. Maybe, I don’t know, it’s because we are both the youngest of the family and try to impress that someone who we respect. (in Kili’s place, Thorin. In mine, my father.) maybe because we want to show that even if we’re the youngest and that we sometimes might be naive and that we dont always watch what we say and such things more, we can be better in both our personality and actions and show them, maybe, that we are capable of many things on our own. Even if we need a Fili on our side on the way to give us advice and help us lol.
Anyways, I’m also dying to read the book, and when I do I will watch the movie and pay even more attention to it. I didn’t notice a few things people point out here but now I know and I’m grateful I had found this website.
I’ve always been a LOTR trilogy fan! And when I saw the promo for The Hobbit I was almost going to die. I screamed so loud my friends had to cover my mouth and pinch me! Since I saw it I was dying for it come and when it did, my life was complete lol. I loved the movie and Im looking forward for it to come out to dvd. I just can’t wait!
Eniliph said:
I really enjoyed this essay! Actually I’ve seen lots of the things you mentioned when I watched the movie and before I read this, but there were some things I didn’t notice and I think they’re quite hard to catch; so thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts! :) I also liked Fili and Kili from the beginning, but not for their looks, though I don’t deny I find them cute, but for their characters and their behaviour, which makes them so attractive. I truly love Kili for his adventurous character and his rash actions, as well as the way the brothers behave. In the scene at the fire, when Kili says “Orks”, Fili first looks at him in a kind of surprise, but one second later, he’s understood what his brother’s playing and joins in. I actually don’t think he’s so much more sensible than Kili. He’s surely calmer and more reserved and, yes, maybe a bit more reasonable, but when Kili starts the joke with the orks, he immediately joins in. In bag end, he’s the one walking on the table and by the way: it’s him starting the game with the plates, throwing Ori’s one to Kili. That’s why I don’t think he’s only indulging Kili; I guess he’s having fun himself, too.
I read the book before watching the film, and I liked them there, too, but I think this was only because they got a tiny little bit more attention than the other dwarves, whom you didn’t get to know closely. But I already liked Thorin in the book. On the one hand maybe, because you get to know more about him than about the others, but also, because even without a closer description of his past, I could understand his actions quite well, although I’d have acted differently if I was him. I think it’s the faults and little weaknesses that make characters in stories realistic and authentic.
Oh, and a last thing about brothers in the company: When they’re fighting the trolls, Ori comes to Nori’s aid, when he’s lifted into the air by one of the trolls. I found that quite cute, especially, because (at least in the film) he’s the youngest. ;)
PS: Sorry, if I made mistakes; my English could be better… ;)
Clarissa said:
I quite agree with you. I really don’t think Fili is all that much more “responsible” than Kili, a bit more and bit more calm but overall, he’s nearly as likely to get into trouble and nearly as inexperienced ad Kili is. He goes along with the same jokes, even starts the plate throwing, when Kili is all overconfident in Gandalf’s ability to kill dragons, Fili doesn’t look at him and shake his head or roll his eyes and make any kind of an oops face, he looks at him and basically has the expression “Yep Bro’s right”. He’s clearly as responsible for the loss of the ponies. I think the brothers are mostly partners in crime, maybe occasionally Fili pulls the older brother card, but mostly I think they make mischief together.
I liked Thorin in the book as well, I mean I knew his flaws but on the other hand I also thought some things happened, because of other characters’ actions, that made the situation worse than it needed it be.
pjyenn said:
thank for the review..i totally spot all the things that u said..and i find it very much entertaining! i love thorin a lot and also kili and fili.
something that still bothering me thou..how on earth thorin yelled at kili name during the stone mountain..it is definitely fili that was under attack..but why on earth it was kili thorin yelled at?
can u explain this annoying fact?
thanks
archedcory1 said:
There are many possible reasons:
1) He may have actually shouted “Fili” (some people have reported hearing it) but it’s hard to make out in the thunderstorm.
2) He may call for Kili for aid.
3) He might have mixed them up. (Everybody who has siblings knows that even mothers do that pretty often)
4) Could just plainly be a filmmaker’s mistake.
Choose your favourite. :)
pjyenn said:
my theory is :
1. Richard Armitage shouted the wronk character name? and peter jackson just let it
slide..
2.also maybe because at the beginning they all planned to drop kili instead of fili..cause of the whole changes in fili character previously name Rob Krazinski or something and they all started shooting without dean come in the picture..i dunno..
one thing for sure thou..it would’ve been a perfect scene thou if Thorin actually yelled at FILI instead of KILI..cause he yelled at kili so many times already..i wanted him to bond with fili too..LMAO
thanks anyways for the response..loveeeeeeeeee your blog!
tigrislilium said:
or perhaps Thorin called Kili by way of commanding ‘Don’t you dare go doing anything rash like jumping after your brother.’ :)
Anjy Roemelt said:
At that moment Fili and Kili were both on the same ledge and – obviously – being dropped into the abyss, so just for being in mortal danger Thorin might have yelled either nephew’s name. To shout for Fili would make more sense since he a) is his direct heir and thus more important to the family and b) has only been dropped onto that very ledge a couple of minutes before, after Kili had been separated from his brother in the beginning of the stone-giant-baseball-game, so Thorin might have get used to Kili being thrown around in the meantime. Really, I am wondering about this scene, too. I have seen it several times now and still am quite sure I can hear him shouting “Kili!”. I’m almost beginning to believe those fans who apply a special bond between those two on the characters may be right, after all.
pjyenn said:
i checked like repeatedly it was KILI that Thotin shouted at..annoying really cause i was hoping that it was FILI! hahaha oh well nevermind..in my head it was FILI that Thorin shouted at..lol
Sherman said:
Thorin and Company reminded me strongly of Klingons from Star Trek prior to those J.J. Abrams abominations. As a member of the KDF they made my heart proclaim “Qapla'”.
D.J. said:
I think the warrior dwarves of Thorin’s Co. are as determined and fierce as Klingons. There are certainly some similarities.
swordwhale said:
As Bofur would say: Klingons: think Dwarves with warp drive…
D.J. said:
LOL!!
Heike said:
Hehe, love it (as a Trekkie and Hobbit fan). But I think the dwarves are far more attractive and they have better table manners.
pjyenn said:
did you guys also noticed that Bombur never stop chewing! cute really..ahhh gotta love the dwarves!
T.M. said:
Thank you so much for this essay! I have to admit, I am a bit of a sucker for attractive faces, so of course Thorin, Fili, and Kili got into my good books straightaway. However, I like family relationships even more, and the connections between Fili and Kili and their uncle Thorin is so heartwarming, up until the end when they die to protect him.
I can understand why people would complain, though. Fili and Kili really don’t look like the classic dwarves Tolkien made up. But making them look much younger than the others shows their more naïve, battle-inexperienced selves and also makes their relationship with Thorin more poignant, since they look up to him so much (almost like how young children would look up to an older, wiser figure, I think).
Anyway, thanks for this awesome essay. You obviously worked like crazy to get the info for this, and it’s great to see someone who obviously loves The Hobbit movie as much as I do. I love all the dwarves and enjoy seeing them fool around even as cast members backstage or in interviews and such. If you haven’t seen it yet, I suggest finding the youtube video where they were quizzed on the movie. They are obviously very close to each other even outside the movie, and it’s very cute to see them teasing each other :)
Anjy Roemelt said:
Just went to see the movie AGAIN. As for that auspicious glance of Thorin’s in the beginning I thought might express scorn at Bilbo or Gandalf for his choice of the latter. I’m now sure it isn’t that. He only looks at Bilbo afterwards and thinks he’s got the measure of him in one glance. But that look before he evidently gives some dwarves, possibly Kili who appears immediately after. It’s not necessarily a deeply felt appraisal of hhis nephew but clearly an “ah, so you’re here” sort of glance. I specially went to see it in HFR to get that sorted out :-)
Helen Reilly said:
Although I hate to admit it, the first couple times that I saw the movie (which I’ve now easily seen over ten times due to my fascination with it all), I was certainly a member of the “group 1″ archedcory speeks of. After all these times watching it, rereading the book, and pouring over blogs like this one, I’ve come to realize how important it is for PJ and Tolkien fans, or critics, to read things like this. I’m now regretting gushing to everyone about how hot the three (Fili and Thorin especially, for me) were, and instead I wish I’d gushed about how fenominal a job the actors and Peter did on foreshadowing and portraying the finest details of these fantastic characters. Kudos to you guys, for stadnding up and saying something!
archedcory1 said:
If it helps you a bit: I find Fili hot as well. ;)
swordwhale said:
The odd thing I keep finding (go ahead, search tumblr for “Hobbit”) is very young women (teens and twenty-somethings) who I would expect to be gushing over sparkly vamps with no frontal lobes… are gushing over these Dwarves. All of ’em. Yes, we have the hotties (by the usual human standards), but it seems the other guys have their fan bases too… perhaps because they are beautifully designed, well played, characters with, well, character! I appreciate the book for what it is: an old fashioned faerie tale in the oral tradition, but I love the detail in the film. I’m waiting to see what great character moments we have in the next two…
…and Bofur’s hat seems to have its very own fan base…
pjyenn said:
questions…what is thorin eye color? i know RA eye color is blue but is he wearing soft lens as thorin?
swordwhale said:
There were a couple of characters whose eyes seemed to shift from blue to hazel to greenish-grey at different times in different light. Gandalf, Bilbo and Thorin, in particular. Tolkien describes several of his characters (particularly Elves) as having “sea-grey eyes”. To me, this was the changing color of the sea, reflecting the light at hand.
Anjy Roemelt said:
I´d like to have a go at another scene. when the company makes camp at night it´s Kili who really pulls that joke with the orcs at Bilbo. When Thorin reprimands them he says “you know nothing of the world”. in English this may be either singular or plural. Kili takes the blame in saying “WE didn´t mean anything by it” and probably Thorin did mean both of them, although Fili mostly just sits by and smiles. Balin, in turn, uses a singular “don´t mind him, laddie” and from Kili´s expression it´s clear he feels the snub personally. so, this really is a scene probably meant to add to the character of Kili. I am sure the producers of the film are not half as interested in the “brunclemance” as we are, but they are interested in shaping the characters. this scene does shape Kili as the rash and forward one who talks first, acts firsts and thinks second if at all. I´m curious WHY they did it, if we will see more of that or possibly a development.
Clarissa said:
Balin may have said “Don’t mind him laddie” because he was the one who said something, thus suggesting he was the one who was bothered by it. It may be that Thorin’s moodiness doesn’t bother Fili much, he’s the heir anyway no matter what. Kili really doesn’t have a “place” in the same way and he may feel he needs to earn it thus any reprimands from his uncle would be taken more personally by him.
Also depending on what happened to Kili and Fili’s father and when, if he died when Kili was a baby Thorin may be the only father figure Kili’s known.
I don’t get the idea that Kili doesn’t “think” at all. He wasn’t reckless with the wargs, he wasn’t reckless with the goblins, he wasn’t particularly reckless during the end attack. Just once in a while his actions get ahead of his thought processes but whenever that happened, it appeared to be fueled by pure motivations.
larvitard said:
Ahhh, this is such a beautiful essay, and it makes me want to see the hobbit again so i can watch out for those interactions between the three. aside from smith of wootton major, the hobbit is my favorite among tolkien’s works.
i have a question, what is your take on the title “the brothers oakenshield”? some ask blog on tumblr bestowed that title upon the brothers fili and kili, and bothers me because i think it’s wrong.
larvitard said:
oops, i meant to say “and it bothers me, because i think it’s wrong.”
D.J. said:
There is plenty on Tumblr that is ridiculous, so it’s hard to get worked up over that in particular. :). But Oakenshield is not a last name, as we use it, so it doesn’t make sense.
Anjy Roemelt said:
No sense at all, in fact. Thorin earned that name by using an oak branch instead of his cloven shield. Fili and Kili would have to do the same thing to achieve the right to the name :D
larvitard said:
precisely. it just ticked me off because after the movie came out a lot of rp blogs started popping up, and although i am not by any means against them (i’m actually a fan of some really good ones from a different fandom), i just wish they would do their research before putting up erroneous stuff.
archedcory1 said:
Well, just as DJ already said. :)
I think in Middle-Earth only Hobbits have real last names like we do. Everybody else, like Thorin Oakenshield or Helm Hammerhand have earned their name by some kind of brave deed they have achieved in their past.
Anjy Roemelt said:
And anyway – dwarves don’t tell their real real names to anybody outside their race. They don’t even set them on their graves.
Urrsari said:
“And when he believes Fili to be lost on the stone giants, you can feel very strongly his despair over this ONE dwarf although a lot more of his company were involved in this collision.”
He screams for Kili, and when he see he´s alive, he stammer Ki-… That´s it ;) He also smiles at KILI when he arrives to the Bag End.
The Fifteenth Member of The Company said:
Fili and Kili were my favorites in the book and (ahem) by far my favorite in the movie. I already screamed like a fan girl when they first appeared.
I don’t know what exactly I will do when Legolas gets on the screen.
:) Those guys are the best. (And not just because they’re really hot…)
swordwhale said:
>D I fell in love with Legolas when I read the Book in 1978. I’ve always been Elf-centric; costuming, D&D, writing my own fiction, art, etc. Then 13 of the finest Dwarves ever graced the screen.
There’s going to be big trouble in little Mirkwood… I won’t be able to take sides at all.
The Fifteenth Member of The Company said:
But whats more, they have great spirit and heart, and thats why I think they are the most admirable. They understand the true value of friendship.
In a way, they are very similar to the Weasly twins from HARRY POTTER
They seem like dwarfs i would love to get to know. :)
The Fifteenth Member of The Company said:
And I’m sorry all these posts are chopped up, (my computers LAME)
But after seeing the movie five times (ahem… hee hee hee)
I can say that the level of excitement and bravery that these two dwarves brought to the table was excellent. They are always, always doing something. I really, really admire who they are.
In defense, yes Kili does seem to be the more “brave and ready to please” one. Fili is indeed more laid back, but when it comes to battle, he is just as brave and fierce as Kili.
Now, can I say that Thorin chose favorites between Fili and Kili?
No.
As they are a family, I do not think Thorin could chose a favorite.
Fili obviously cares very much for Thorin. He cried out Thorins name seeing him unconcious in the Eagles talons. He also cares very much for Kili, when the stone giants gave the illusion of the rest of the company being crushed.
Overall, i was blown away by these very loving, very compassionate, funny, adorable, brave and handsome dwarves.
And no, i cannot chose favorites :)
swordwhale said:
I was struck by the character of these two. In a lesser film, they might have simply been The Hot Young BoyBand. They are far more. I especially like the humor in Kili (if he just smouldered sexily i’d have to smack him with a troll). If you watch Aidan in interviews, you see where the quirky, humorous side of Kili comes from.
Hello said:
Kili was my favorite character the entire movie, and it went much further than his looks (not trying to be gay here, but he was good-looking), although I could not put my finger on it. Thanks for really defining the good points of these three amazing dwarves. It was really well written!!!
Although, I had to disagree with you on one point. I do not find Kili’s use of the bow monotonous or boring; i like characters who use the bow and arrow. It is more of a personnel preference, I guess.
Anyway, good job. :-)
archedcory1 said:
Thanks for the nice words. :)
I am actually torn on this subject. I like both archery AND sword fighting. I suppose my reason prefering the sword here is simply the fact that I LOVE the design of his sword! I am almost glad they don’t sell that one as merchandise, I know I would have already wasted a lot of money on it. lol :)
Good to know Kili also has guy fans! :D
D.J. said:
I like Kili’s bow use too, because it shows dwarves can be archers, no reason why not. I think he uses the sword quite a bit too. What I find a little monotonous is Thorin’s spin attack with Orcrist. I would have liked to see less spinning (cool as it may have looked) and more use of his long handled axe.
Clarissa said:
I must have missed that part of the article. LOL Why would Kili’s bow use be “monotonous”? Did someone forget all the times he used a sword?(Stone Trolls, Goblin Town, the Orcs at the end).
That shows Kili is actually multi-talented when it comes to weaponry, he was shown to do very well with a sword as a matter of fact. He’s very highly trained and if anything I think was shown to have a knack for handling weaponry and battling, though of course somewhat inexperienced. It also may say something about his personality – different aspects are needed to master different types of weapons, using a bow and arrow is very different than using a sword or axe.
Hello said:
Also, (sorry for the choppiness), Kili was more eager to please Thorin and also was a more amusing and entertaining than Fili or any of the other dwarves. He was so awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anjy Roemelt said:
I must say that after watching the film a couple of times the not-so-hot dwarves are rather growing on me. I’d like to read something about Dori, Nori and Ori next. :-)
T.M. said:
I agree with you on that one. Everyone is so obsessed with Thorin, Fili, and Kili that not many of the other dwarves are really paid any attention. In my opinion, Ori’s extreme politeness and knitted sweaters were adorable, and Bofur with his Irish accent and joking attitude was hands-down my favourite dwarf.
Anjy Roemelt said:
I think, given time, I will develop a crush on Bifur (Ori I will adopt one of these days). First, he’s really handsome, Bifur is, with his bi-coloured beard. Second, that orc-axe burried in his head gives him just as tragic a past as Thorin’s save for the kingship. Bifur, Bofur and Bombur are hard-working miners with not a drop of royal Durin-blood in their veins, real down-to-earth dwarves, but did you notice Bifur giving that orc one more for the road on the plains above Rivendell? Or the way he roasts the veggies on the fire? BTW, when does a harp sounds best? Crackling in the flames, of course. :D Andthat he only talkes ancient Khuzdul makes him Super-dwarf, ina way, doesn’t it?
D.J. said:
I really loved Bifur in the vlogs but that’s because of William Kircher’s odd humor. I wish Bifur had gotten more time to be weird on screen.
But the next dwarves on my list to delve into are Balin and Dwalin.
swordwhale said:
If my tumblr feed is any example, Bofur and Ori have quite the fan base… and Bofur’s hat. I have a personal liking for Bofur; it’s the gentle humor and optimism, and that face he gets when Bilbo tries to leave right before they end up in the goblin caves. James Nesbitt joked about going into the makeup trailer looking like George Clooney and coming out looking like Bofur.
Some of us think Bofur > George… ( > = is more attractive than)
archedcory1 said:
I have to say sorry, but it won’t be me who’ll do that. I know not even nearly as much about the others as I do about the three heirs.
Of the others I myself like Dwalin and Bifur best by the way. :)
Anjy Roemelt said:
Is this for lack of information or for lack of pictures? ;-) I mean, there’s not really much about Fili and Kili in the book (more about Thorin in the Unfinished Tales), there is nearly nothing about Dwalin, much more about Balin from the Lord of the Rings and Ori is in that, too. I think that would be interesting to delve into. Why did Ori go with Balin to Moria? Even more so – why did Oín, he wasn’t exactly a stripling any more. Gloin didn’t go, but he was at the council of Elrond and seemingly rather old, by now. It’s not too hard with the film in mind,. The Ori we see there would be eager for adventure, interested in a historical place like Moria and quite useful, too, with his ability to draw and write. From the book we can just say that Ori was a member of the company in The Hobbit, thus had seen adventure, had had contact with Elves and Men, and if we take in what is said in The Lord of the Rings, he obviously was son interested he liked to write in Elvish and must have written a lot to be practiced in it. So, he probably was very observant of cultural differences, open-minded and tolerant, liked to meet new things and rather than kill them sketch them or write about them. He might have felt the need to prove his hardiness, also, being a “real” dwarf, so Balin would have been happy to take him along.
Film-Ori would have been more than eager to go. Orcs? Maybe dragons? LOts of danger? Great, gimme my catapult! O, wait, I’ll have to stow away my sketch-book first. Taken the 60 years that have passed he’d probably be more careful and wise but still an enthusiast. Dori may have aged considerably and be content to stay home and safe with a herb for every ailment readily available, and Nori either would have been succesful in any trade doubtful or not and able to support his brother’s endeavour. But Ori would not be content sitting at Erebor or the Iron mountains or even the Ered Luin, he’d still want to see more things. encounter Elves again. I think he would have got along very well with Merry and Pippin, maybe even detect himself and his brothers in them.
archedcory1 said:
Lack of interest.
Maybe you should do it. :D
Anjy Roemelt said:
Deal. just give me a couple of days. :-)
txcollies said:
I thought I was the only one that felt this way. But this post was brilliant and I see I’m not alone!! I have long loved those three, from the first time I read the book.
I am loving them in the movie too. I am sure PJ will do right by them, as tragic and heartbreaking as it will be in the end. :( But really I’m glad they will all “go out together.” I wouldn’t want just one surviving, and I really don’t think one brother COULD survive without the other.
I’m of a firm opinion that Thorin has no favorites. Can’t see it, really. They are family, his heirs… Nope I’m sticking with it that both are equally loved and favored. ;)
txcollies said:
eh…. half of my post got cut out!
Anyway, I also never saw where people get that Thorin seems to favor Kili just because he “looks more like him.” I happen to think Fili, except for hair color, looks a lot like Thorin as well. And, really, probably the only reason Kili is being yelled at, watched over more is because, well, have you seen him? He’s impulsive, very young, full of himself, brimming over with life and very prone to act first and think later. Adorable, but needs watching! I just can’t see a favorite there, honestly. They both are a complete package deal.
And I laughed every time I hear Fili say the line about not telling Thorin after they lost the ponies. As an oldest sibling myself, I understand that feeling only too well. You don’t want to get into trouble, you don’t want your younger sibling to get in trouble and you don’t want to disappoint the person you look up to, either, IMO.
As for the rest of the dwarves, I loved them!!!
archedcory1 said:
My point exactly! Kili is almost annoyingly rash and reckless. Adorable too, but definitely a little child you want to roll your eyes at all the time. I am actually surprised none of the hordes of fangirls seems to see that. I suppose good looks can forgive a lot of things. haha
Eniliph said:
I think, Kili might seem more interesting to some people, just BECAUSE he is rash and reckless. Just imagine a film with a group of old, sensible men talking and discussing for a long time before actually doing something. You’d be bored to death and – by the way – the whole quest wouldn’t have been started, because until Gandalf shows them key to the hidden door in bagend, they don’t even know how to get into the mountain. (Which is different to the book, if I’m right.) Reasonable people would have searched for a way in before assembling fellows, don’t you think?
I agree that Kili’s character would be annoying in a book, because there the reader would prefer to have people who know what they are doing. But in a film, one (or even two) such characters might be very refreshing – as long as there is someone (Thorin in this case) to stop them from getting into trouble.
And concerning the “favourite”: I think there is none, too. Kili might get more attention of Thorin (and from the camera as well, didn’t you think?), but it’s because of what has been said above, he’s careless and impulsive. Moreover, the fact that he’s the younger brother might be important, too. It’s in a way related to the other reasons, but from my own experience I can say that younger siblings are likely to get a little bit more attention than older ones. (That’s a personal view, I’m not saying this always has to be true.)
txcollies said:
” in the final film, Kili’s character is developed further as Richard Armitage (who plays Thorin Oakenshield) explains,
“In the third film we [Thorin and Kili] had some really kind of sensitive, intimate moments. He’s [Kili] such a heroic character in the first movie and his journey is fascinating and he goes through all sorts of traumas, so it was a real privilege to play that with him [Aidan] and he really gave himself up to it.”—http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/74698709.html
I for one, will be sorely disappointed if Fili doesn’t get any scenes like this with Thorin. He will need those moments too. :-/
eniliph said:
I’m hoping for more screentime for Fili, too. :) I think, Kili got more attention in the first film, espescially in the fighting scenes, as it was mentioned in this essay. But there are still two films ahead, I’m sure he’ll have some nice scenes there. :)
Jayma said:
I wonder if we saw a bit less of Fili in this film because of the actor changeover. Dean O’Gorman’s Fili is absent from the Misty Mountains song scene. It’s Rob Kazinsky who walks in with Aidan Turner, and goes off to the left, and his profile is seen when the camera first pans onto Thorin beginning the song. I know Rob Kazinsky left fairly early on, but they had obviously shot some important scenes with him, and I suspect PJ just cut some of Fili’s scenes rather than reshoot every single one with Dean O’Gorman.
I suspect we may see more of Fili in the next film because of this. Also PJ has been known to take on board the popularity of his trilogy characters (I’m thinking of Legolas here, when PJ added some Legolas heroic scenes in ROTK because of the audience reaction to them in Fellowship and Two Towers) No doubt he will be aware of Fili’s popularity and increase his screentime accordingly!
archedcory1 said:
My point exactly! He even brough “Figwit” back to a point that he actually has a SPEAKING role in the Hobbit now. That is something I respect very much in PJ!
Anjy Roemelt said:
My girls would strongly object. They think their older brother gets more attention. But the thinks otherwise ;-)
Clarissa said:
What did Kili do that was that annoyingly rash and reckless? He made a slightly bad joke(and let’s face it Fili was going right along with it, smiling too) which let’s face it in any other situation wouldn’t have caused anyone else to blink an eye because it’s common “dangerous quest” humor to try to scare “the new guy”, it’s practically a trope, only Thorin got bent out of shape about it(and what does it say about Thorin that he’s apparently never told his heirs about their own family history in this regard, it seemed like they were hearing it for the first time along with everyone else), and he almost rushed into a dangerous situation with the stone trolls when they were threatening Bilbo.
And he called out on the parasites but Oin actually was the first one to react to it(despite being hard of hearing LOL), so in that sense Kili was following an elder’s displeased reaction(and hey Thorin was using Oin’s reading of the “portents” as part of his reason for going on the quest, no reason Kili wouldn’t respect him:). He is somewhat rash and reckless, he is a bit naive, but it wasn’t that extreme and it wasn’t his major trait. If anything I’d say his eagerness to please Thorin was his most defining character trait. It’s like he was always there wanting to be useful, waiting to be called upon, to be of use to him.
He took Thorin’s directions seriously and he never actually caused a bad situation on his own. He was good natured, friendly, open, talented with his weapons, both bow and sword. Look at how Kili and Fili came into the house in their treatment of Bilbo, Kili greeted Bilbo by name(well almost:)), Fili walked in the door and dumped his weapons on Bilbo. :) Kili tried to make some small talk with Bilbo about his house(not helped by wiping his boots on Bilbo’s mother’s Glory box but we see that the dwarves have very different ideas on manners, but he was asking Bilbo about himself not just what Bilbo could do for him or asking where the food was). Now I’m not saying Fili did anything wrong, he clearly likes Bilbo well enough but that right there is a reason people might like Kili beyond his looks.
If one pays attention beyond his good looks, which seems to blind some people to the fact that his character has any worth at all beyond just being “lesser” than his uncle and brother, you see that, despite just a small amount of screen time and dialogue, Kili is actually already portrayed as a fairly 3 dimensional character with enough complexity to make his choices and potential choices interesting AND very meaningful within the larger story.
Also what’s with the denigrating remark about “fangirls”? :D It might be somewhat smart to not start insinuating that fans of things with different ideas only like them because they are silly little fangirls blinded by looks. People can say the same about many Thorin “apologists” if they were so inclined but it wouldn’t be fair or right. :)
archedcory1 said:
Well, there you already answered many situations where Kili was reckless… what was the question again? :D
I on the other hand don’t understand why people think Fili and Kili hear Thorin’s story for the first time in that cave. It didn’t appear like that to me at all. Balin was telling the story to Bilbo and they listened in awe because they like to hear it over and over again. That was my impression at least.
I don’t see where I insinuate anything. I am also a fan and also a girl (well, *cough*, technically the girl age is a bit far away already…), so I would insult myself there… IF I ever did. Which I don’t think happened. ;)
He has fangirls, many don’t see anything beyond his looks and I don’t understand that. That is really all I said.
Anjy Roemelt said:
I got the impression they heard it for the first time at Bag end. How come they never wondered how their grandfather and great-grandfather escaped from the mountain? Or will we be spared that detail? After all it’s the official reason why Richard Armitage in the end felt comfortable with growing only a short beard ;-).
Anjy Roemelt said:
And there really are different shades of “fan-girling”. I am well past the girl-stage myself but there is a place deep down inside me where a teenager is jumping around screaming with delight over some moments of the movie. I just wouldn’t go and publish this for anyone to see on the web. I know from my three teenage-daughters the difference between the “oh-he’s-so-hot” type and the “he-is-so-deep-and.-thoughtful-and-nobody-understands-him-like-I-do” and the “the-character-is-meant-to-express” type. All of the above can be equally annoying – to different people – and equally delightful. It takes all kinds of fan-girls to make a successful movie ;-).
swordwhale said:
And I pretty much just sat there with a big stupid grin on my face for the (mumble mumble) times I saw the film…. for the whole three hours… yep, I read the book sin 1978. still a fangirl.
Clarissa said:
“Well, there you already answered many situations where Kili was reckless… what was the question again?”
LOL That seems a very low threshold for reckless and rash if those rather small occasions are what count as “annoying”. Compared to most “rash and reckless” types portrayed in films and TV, Kili’s practically an angel if that’s the measure being used. :D
A small joke which wasn’t actually rash and reckless, at it’s worst I think it could be considered in slightly bad taste, and in most situations probably wouldn’t cause the batting of an eyelash. Frankly Bofur’s insisting on describing cheerfully and in great detail just what Smaug could do while Bilbo was reading the contract was probably worse. This is the dialogue in the joke scene:
[Kili:] “Orcs”
[Bilbo:] “Orcs?”
[Fili:] “Throat-cutters. There’ll be dozens of them out there. The lowlands are crawling with them.”
[Kili:] “They strike in the wee small hours, when everyone’s asleep. Quick and quiet; no screams, just
lots of blood.”
[Bilbo looks away in fright; Fili and Kili look at each other and begin laughing.]
As you can see Fili is every bit as involved in the joke as Kili is, so how does Kili qualify as the “annoyingly rash and reckless one”? In fact it was Fili who ramps it up, for all we know Kili is just following Fili’s lead in making it sound bigger and scarier than just plain “Orcs”, maybe Kili would have just said “yeah, orcs…better sleep with one eye open” and left it that if Fili hadn’t chimed in with bigger and scarier descriptions—excuses can work both ways:) But honestly it’s just your basic “campfire scary story”, no worse. Like the ax murderer in the woods.
As well the dialogue afterwards from Balin:
“Don’t mind him, laddie(the “laddie” he’s referring to being Kili). Thorin has more cause than most to hate orcs. After the dragon took the Lonely Mountain, King Thror tried to reclaim the ancient dwarf kingdom of Moria. But our enemy had got there first.”
That looks and sound distinctly like Balin is describing a situation Kili and most probably Fili didn’t know about because he starts saying while giving some words of comfort to Kili because Kili obviously feels badly about upsetting his uncle. Balin in essence is making excuses for Thorin’s somewhat over the top reaction, which actually supports my initial point that the joke itself was fairly mundane and not particularly worthy of such a reaction.
And then my other example, which was almost rushing into a dangerous situation because he was WORRIED about someone else, in this case Bilbo? Slightly rash and reckless but also understandable and not nearly as reckless as Thorin, oh I don’t know, rushing headlong into a pack of orcs while his whole group was in danger from both wargs and collapsing trees.
Only it wasn’t to protect them, imo, he clearly wasn’t thinking about anything but the destruction of his own delusions, because he was shocked to see the murdering orc he’d managed to convince himself was dead was actually alive.( We’ve seen Orcs being held together by metal plates, leather straps and screws, why would a lost arm necessarily kill it? I mean I sympathize with him because he saw his grandfather murdered and I understand WHY he had to convince himself of this, to move forward, but it was a faulty judgment and slightly delusional none the less and in the end his actions were reckless and put not only himself but his party in even more danger, especially those who would try to protect him from his own recklessness)
The only thing that really would count, imo, as being particularly rash is the parasite situation and he didn’t even entirely start that, And it was hardly the first time, when Bilbo said they smelled, before the thing with the parasites and the skinning them thing, a whole bunch of the dwarves howled at him in displeasure. I think it’s safe to say the dwarves in general aren’t all that clever in that sense(I think they are generally a straight foward and literal people) and that includes Thorin even if he did finally manage to figure out what Bilbo was doing, it took him long enough. :)
Gloin was ready to start a fight with the elves when Elrond invited them to dinner in Elvish, despite not understanding what they were saying he wanted to take it immediately as an insult. Isn’t that pretty reckless and hot headed and he’s quite a bit older than Kili is. Or how about Bofur, sticking his head out to watch the Stone Giants in shock and awe, Kili had to pull him back for his own safety, that was pretty rash and reckless right.
So I’m just not seeing where Kili’s rashness and recklessness, which at least has the excuse of youth and inexperience, deserves to be considered so much more a defining characteristic and an oh so annoying one at that especially when he has other fine and noble qualities that are just as prevalent.
Quote from your above post: ” Kili is almost annoyingly rash and reckless. Adorable too, but definitely a little child you want to roll your eyes at all the time. I am actually surprised none of the hordes of fangirls seems to see that. I suppose good looks can forgive a lot of things. haha”
That, imo, implies that this is the reason fans see him as having more depth and complexity than perhaps you see him as having or as seeing his flawed traits as not being quite so defining or annoying. That sort of comment is kind of saying “you can’t take them and their opinions seriously because they are just shallow and blinded by good looks” and it paints anyone who sees it that way in the same light, whether you mean it to or not. It’s an opinion that he is annoyingly rash and reckless and it’s an opinion he’s definitely a little child worthy of eyerolls all the time. They are not facts. Other opinions are just as valid and deserve more respect than “well whatever clearly just blinded by the good looks”.
I wish I could remember the technical term for this sort of argument – you know like there are “strawman arguments”? There is a name for this sort of argument too, it would probably be the same as the one where the sanity and/or maturity of those who disagree are called into question in order to somehow make their opinions appear less legitimate. I’ve seen this sort of thing happen in too many other fandoms. This fandom is pretty new(the movie part of it), it would be nice to see that avoided in this one.
“Roll your eyes at all the time”? I can’t really think of much that would be eye roll worthy, never mind “all the time”.
Once in a while when yelling about parasites? :D Sure, but that’s about it. I’d want to roll my eyes at Fili saying “If there’s a key, there must be a door” too, and at Ori complaining about “green food”, and Bofur sticking his head way out to watch Stone Giants throw stones at his location and Bombur’s constant eating and Dori seeming to think that Gandalf can stop the rain…etc, etc.
Dean said:
That was almost as entertaining as the essay, itself. Thanks.
Anjy Roemelt said:
O. come on, let’s call a stick a stick. Most fan-girls are short of philosophers: They can be annoying and shallow minded a lot. Just look at the ridiculous fan-fiction the internet is rife with. But since most of them are in their teens what else should they be? I’d be worried if my daughters didn’t show some irresponsibility and frank craziness at their age. If and how they should be told is another piece of cake.All the more since we’re discussing not real people but fictious characters. As for those, Kili is obviously meant to appear rash and reckless. The way he is put to the front by the director AND the hints (teasers, more like) we are given by mr. Armitage and sundry that Kili is a character to develop through the movies to a great extent clearly show that. It will be interesting to study this development – and the reactions from fans.
txcollies said:
I can’twait to see Kili’s characterdevelopfurther.I really hopePJwon’tforget aboiyFilitoo, thoug. I actually had a dream about it – PJleftFililone forthe next two movies and neverdid a thingwith him.I remember waking upall out of sorts- embarrassing!
txcollies said:
Man, I posted that from wordpress mobile and after it published it was totally screwed up. Try again:
I can’t wait to see Kili’s character develop further. And I’m sure the scenes between him and RA will be amazing.
I have this fear though (isn’t that insane) that PJ will do nothing with Fili at all. He’ll be in the background, loveable but just not developed any further until the end. I actually had a dream about that (further insanity) and woke up mad! I want both of the nephews to develop! They are the heirs of Durin, thy are still very young and inexperienced, it’s their first adventure, good grief they go out like heroes almost in the end. GIVE THEM RESPECT AND CHARACTER development so they’ll be ready for that point!! Ahh!!!
archedcory1 said:
I never stated anything I said here as “facts” (apart from stuff written in the book and definitely obvious in the movie), I thought it was clear this is just my opinion. And I never claimed it to be the ultimate truth. I am sorry if this wasn’t clear.
Courtney Coulson said:
Fantastic analysis, there were a lot of things I didn’t pick up on first viewing because there is simply so much to take in (like remembering which dwarf is which!). Can’t wait for the Hobbit on DVD, it will certainly be a rewarding movie to revisit.
These three are my favourite characters both in the book and the film, their dynamic is the most interesting (although I also liked Bilbo and Balin in the book, Balin hardly does anything in the film).
Part of me wishes the ending won’t turn out to be the same as the book, the deaths of these three are always heartbreaking to me, especially because Fili and Kili are wiped out of the picture in one sentence. Tolkien was a briliant world builder and created great adventures, but he told things a little too matter-of-fact sometimes. I know PJ will definitley bring out the drama of their deaths and honor them properly.
Anjy Roemelt said:
I’m really curious how they will develop the characters. I have read some hints on the web about the relationship between Thorin and Kili. Now, the book says that when Thorin learned about Bilbo’s theft of the Arkenstone and openly declared his ancestry being that of rodents – not to mention threatening to throw him off the walls , quite understandable imhO – Fili and Kili were among those most strongly objecting to this treatment of their esteemed burrahobbit. This would be a genius way to make Kili grow into a more mature and independet person by making him stand up to his uncle – and heartbreaking to fans, of course. PJ has been known to take half a sentence of the book and make it into a whole plot-line. Did you notice that that scene somebody jumping off the burning trees to meet the orcs is not an invention (or alteration)? IN the book it was Gandalf making ready to do this fully knowing it would be his death (he still could die in those times) but buy his friends some time. Just the eagles picked him up first.
swordwhale (Teanna) said:
Derp! And I just read the Hobbit too! I am quite fond of the way the films have expanded and added detail to what was essentially a read-aloud tale in the ancient oral tradition. I’m looking forward to those character development moments expanded into scenes. We already have a list of fun names turned into great characters.
There were a few others of Thorin’s Company who objected as well. When Thorin shoots the arrow at the messenger, “…most of them seemed to share his mind, except perhaps for old fat Bombur and Fili and Kili.” Later, when Thorin nearly throws Bilbo off the wall, Bilbo leaves with: “More than one of the Dwarves in their hearts felt shame and pity at his going.”
Anjy Roemelt said:
it is also Bombur, Fili and Kili (and Balin) Bilbo thinks of when the battle finally closes over him, thus indicating a closer relationship between them. I wonder if they will give Bombur the credit he deserves. In the book he is mostly fat (it is mentioned far more often than would be strictly necessary) and – at least once – old (when Bilbo takes over his watch to sneak out to the host of Elves and Men), but he is one of the more prominent figures among the dwarves as individualizing goes. The film, so far, portrayes him mostly as comic, which is a shame, really.
pjyenn said:
you guys are awesome..and i love reading this continuous reply!
i also recently watching strike back,spooks and the almighty johnsons..just because i love dean o’morgan.RA and adian too..i already watch being human way before he’s kili! love em’ all!
archedcory1 said:
I know that feeling. :)
pjyenn said:
right? epic really! and i starting to like Dean even more than RA..he’s character in thealmighty freakin cool! every now and then i love him more as fili thou!
archedcory1 said:
I know I shouldn’t say this as an intelligent grown-up woman since he is playing such a prick there… But I find Anders Johnson really adorable. ;)
pjyenn said:
i know what you mean..he’s super short and tiny but still looking extremely HOT! love him as Anders really..can’t wait for season 3!
pjyenn said:
just want to share RA interview…i find this very interesting knowing that RA such a fanboy towards tolkien and PJ works! fun t read really! http://goo.gl/Wi81u
yelloweeee said:
ArchedCory, and DarkJackal, thanks for this great essay!!
In the book, there isn’t really too much between these three, but I was so glad that the films put some focus on them.
Loved the harsh and, at one time, pained shouts Thorin directed to his nephews….it’s one of the things that adds real tenderness to a character who, in the book, is not likeable for most of the time!
And yes, it’s great to see the respect Fili and Kili have for their uncle. I agree, Thorin is so proud of them (I noticed the smile at Bag End, but I didn’t figure it was to Fili and Kili) and encourages them. While Fili and Kili do want to impress him and show they love him.
I’ll be looking out for more interaction in the next two films…both the two brothers alone (they are adorable together) and with their uncle.
Anjy Roemelt said:
I read this in “History of Middle-Earth” today: “while ´Meriadoc´ was chosen to fit the fact that his character´s shortened meant ´jolly, gay´, in westron kili …”. Tolkien here refers to the fact that his books are presented to be translated from the ´common speech´ or westron, so are all the names therein and Merry´s “real” name was Kilimanac, Kili for short. (and of course ´gay´ has the 1950s meaning of being merry, frolicksome), but doesn´t it fit “our” Kili, too? although the dwarvish names were meant to be taken from the language of Dale (Old Norse in reality).
archedcory1 said:
Well, speaking German myself (you know how German and Scandinavian languages are really close) it’s often easy to make out for me where he got his names from. Kili is very close to the German word for “wedge”, which is a rather dull explanation if you ask me.
What I like a lot more here is that “kili” means “kid” in Finnish. I know it probably wasn’t done on purpose, but I just like to believe it. And my hopes aren’t complete nonsense, I know that Tolkien knew about Finnish language (if only the structure) quite well, maybe he tried to fit that name both languages. Who knows. ;)
Fili however has no meaning, there is no F in Finnish language.
Anjy Roemelt said:
Kili for German wedge? Do you mean “Keil”? But it was just meant to be a shortened form of Kilimanac (which at first glance more resembles Kilimandscharo LOL). Tolkien himself said he wanted them to appear celtic, because the Brandybucks had an independent streak about them much like the Welsh and the English, they sort of valued themselves (you remember Lobelia accusing Froso of being a Brandybuck and therefore not belonging to Hobbiton and Merry saying that was a compliment and so, of course, not true). The concluding -c appears in traditional Welsh names like Caradoc.
archedcory1 said:
Yes, I mean “Keil”.
But I thought Kilimanac is Merry’s name and has nothing to do with Kili? Often in Tolkien’s universe there will be quite similiar names that have nothing to do with each other. One of those examples that keeps giving me headaches is Turin – Tuor – Turgon. I’ll be completely honest with you: I never know which is which.
Anjy Roemelt said:
You’re right, Kilimanac is Merry’s name, but I liked the “creative coincidence” that its meaning fits “our” Kili so well. The names of the dwarves are all from the Edda, btw. When you look into a randomly chosen volume of History of MIddle Earth you’ll find names change and re-changed until your head spins (at least mine does), but Turin (Hurin’s son, human), Tuor (Huors son: Huor was Hurin’s brother, human) and Turgon (Fingolfin’s son, thus hephew to Feanor, Noldor-Elf, founder and king of Gondolin) seem to have kept their names throughout the process. I always have to look up Turgon’s ancestry, though ;-).
kili99 said:
I love this essay! It really got me thinking about the relationship between the heirs of Durin. Thank you so much for posting this! :)
Galadriel Boswell said:
I loved reading this! This realtionship is what makes a movie or book so touching. You said it best that it couldn’t be any more gripping. I have read the Hobbit many times and it has never “touched” me like the movie did. It has built the charcters up beautifully and I don’t know how I ‘m going to be able to watch them die. I honestly don’t think I can watch it after becoming so attached :( He comes so far to have it ripped from him again. I would definitley vote to have “movie magic” save them but our loyal book followers wouldn’t have it any other way :( Breaks my heart!
Heike said:
I totally agree with you here – don’t know how we can stand watching these gorgeous characters die. It seems somehow mean to make them so lovable and then kill them off?! Not nice, PJ! But still hoping for a miracle here and that he just might change the ending. Or he could do two endings, so everyone can be happy!
hobbit said:
Thank you for this awesome essay! There is so much depth to these characters. On the subject of names and their meanings I thought you might be interested in knowing the Fili in Sindarin means ‘cave’ and Thorin can be a conjunction of the words ‘thor’ (eagle) and ‘in’ (the), which = ‘the eagle’. This is really cool because Thorin is really fierce and proud just like an eagle (thank you to Hisweloke’s Sindarin Dictionary for these translations).
archedcory1 said:
All the dwarf names (except Balin) + Gandalf come from the Norse mythology, they all appear in the Völuspa of the Edda. However the dwarf names there are just thrown in, without information. Tolkien then decided to give those names a story. So they are just that – names. There are no meanings to them, especially not in Sindarin!
And well, I just know bits and pieces in Sindarin, but I always thought “eagle” would be “thoron”… (as in Thorondor)
hobbit said:
I am aware that the Dwarves take their names from the Westron language and hide their true Dwarvish names. it just seemed like an interesting coincidence.
Ms Congeniality said:
I so love everything I have read here, blog and comments alike… I’m so into “The Hobbit”,.. well, after being so reluctant to watch it at first being more of an LOTR fan, but that is water under the bridge now as I consider them all one very loooong story. I would watch the movie all over again to take more notice of the details regarding the relationship between Thorin and his nephews, Fili and Kili, not that I failed to observe them before, but to SEE more of what I have already noted. I admit I’d like to see more of the emotions shown by these great actors to give life to their roles. These actors were amazing, as you have all mentioned, they exceeded expectations!
Ms Congeniality said:
Oooppss! I forgot to say thanks to all of you. We all share the same admiration for them. :)
Sothia said:
What a great article! Really enjoyed reading this: thoughtful, intelligent and perceptive. Such a pleasure after an internet of “Squeeeee! Hot dwarf!”
Kathrine said:
Loved your explanations of the book and the movie. Great job. Thank you.
Dgirl said:
Huge thanks DJ and ArchedCory for this essay. I read it a few days ago and it stuck with me. I also agree with ArchedCory about the eventual painfulness we will all feel—the “hot ones” are designed that way so we’ll all cry harder at the end. Bigger emotional buy-in means bigger emotional impact for the film.
Regarding the interplay in Thorin’s arrival at Bag End, which I didn’t notice until I watched the DVD a couple times. It happens very fast—but is more visible if you have the ability to click through the DVD one frame at a time. Here’s the onscreen action: Thorin comes in, takes off his cloak and folds it over his arm, them smiles (warmly?) at someone off screen to the viewer’s left. As Gandalf begins to introduce Bilbo, we see the back of Kili’s head as he enters the frame on the left (which ArchedCory has also noted in the comments.) Next camera angle, we are facing Thorin and Kili is standing beside him on the right—a far more sober Kili than we just saw laughing in the dining room. If you watch the very bottom of the screen, Thorin passes the cloak to Kili, who takes it almost reverently and folds it over his own arm. Once the cloak is passed, the camera moves to center Thorin in the shot. A few moments later we see Kili step back into the frame as he takes a position directly behind Thorin, his expression quite serious, his eyes on the back of Thorin’s head. As Thorin circles Bilbo and asks if he’s done much fighting, you can see that Kili is still holding the cloak looking very much like a soldier standing in his designated position while on duty to the commanding officer. As the dialog continues, Kili smiles, but does not really interact with the others–again, as if he’s on duty.
So here’s what I’m wondering: are we seeing the first hint of Kili in the role of King’s assistant? (Or symbolic king, anyway.) They do this little moment quite smoothly and without speaking (much like the non-verbal “use the bow and shoot that orc, would you,” exchange they have much later in the film.) Kili takes the cloak and stands aside with purpose, and to me this doesn’t look like it’s the only time he’s done such a thing for his uncle. It strikes me that it’s not unreasonable to think that Kili, as the younger brother, would have been trained as a youth to serve as Thorin’s page (and perhaps both brothers were) much in the spirit of Lindir/Elrond, Gamling/Theoden, or the more fleeting Pippin/Denethor relationship. It doesn’t seem unreasonable that one would occasionally still fall into the page role. I’m also thinking that we *may* see Kili step into this page/assistant role with Thorin again in movies 2 and 3—there’s those hints of “intimate moments” in movie 2, and perhaps by the last movie, Kili’s presence that close to Thorin gives the audience a sympathetic character’s POV—again, like Pippin and Denethor or even Eowyn/Theoden—as Thorin declines into madness.
Anybody else see that? Maybe I’m over-thinking it, but that’s where my story-brain went. Anyway—thanks again for this post. I really appreciated the essay and the comments. And thumbs up to the idea of web wake after Movie 3… And while I love the three Durin heirs and find them completely endearing (and will have to take a BOX of tissue to the last movie), I have to say that I’m more of a Dwalin lassie myself.
D.J. said:
That moment was something I missed entirely in the cinema and did not see until watching it on DVD. I think the relationship is very likely as you say.
We might have seen more similarly subtle yet meaningful interactions between Thorin and Fili if they had not changed actors part way through shooting. Instead we get a lot of scenes where Fili is obscured or left out entirely. A shame. Hopefully film two will start to make up for this loss.
Koparumka said:
It was actually kili who was almost smashed by the cliff in the thunder battle. Alot of people think it was fili, but he screamed no,kili! And plus, when the ledge first breaks away, you see kili and Thoren look at eachother all anguished and such.
txcollies said:
Actually it was Fili. Yes RA yelled Kili (he admits he has trouble mixing them up – and I’m not sure why PJ let that slip) but if you watch, rewatch, rerewatch the scene on DVD you can see it’s Kili and Thorin on one side and Fili on the other. After they smash into the mountain, Thorin rounds the corner in a panic and Fili and the others are lying on the ground looking around dazedly. And then Thorin sags in relief.
archedcory1 said:
Yes, but look at the date. I wrote this actually on December 14th after seeing the film only for the second time. I didn’t know it by heart yet at that point. :)
mmgilchrist said:
The more I read all the character articles on here, the more I love them! (The articles and the characters!) I am dreading the third film because my heart is going to break for these brave, loveable Dwarves.
durinheir said:
I know ~ I can’t stand the thought, much less having to sit and watch :( The eagles need to get there faster. We need to find some faster moths LOL. I’m sure it will be an epic performance though by our talented heirs of durin ~ it will just break my heart and I’m sure scar me forever. I could barely watch Thorin getting attacked by Azog ~ just imagine him in the Battle of 5 Armies ~ I don’t know if I can take it!!!
mmgilchrist said:
Yes! When I saw him getting knocked around, I just wanted to get in there with a First Aid kit, to care for him…
I’ve started a fic set just after the battle, but have tweaked things a bit so Thorin will recover from his wounds. (Of course, this will mean he has to lie around shirtless for a while… ;-D)
durinheir said:
sounds good to me ~ yay ;) can’t wait to read it. Us loyal fans and our fanfics lol. I have wrote one as well ~ I think you’ll approve <3 The sucker ended up being 154 pages in a word document lol. Getting someone to polish it up and edit it for me before I post on fanfiction.net. Hopefully it will be ready next week ~ I will let you know soon :)
mmgilchrist said:
Excellent!
The start of mine is here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/9199728/1/The-Honour-of-Dwarves
(I’m working on Chapter 2, but my mother’s death in March and my father’s recent illness have thrown out my writing time a bit lately.)
BTW, the brown Hobbit Chronicles book has a lovely painting for an unused concept of the Ered Luin forge scene. It shows Thorin working at his anvil while stripped to the waist. He has Dwarven-geometric tattoos and a few old scars on his chest…
durinheir said:
Oh no kili and fili :( Wonderful read ~ love your descriptions!!! Can’t wait for more <3
durinheir said:
so sorry to hear about your mother ~ saying a special prayer for your father <3
Kane said:
My… goodness… so much writing, I feel somewhat burdened by it all really, even after pushing through it.
I will say, I deeply appreciate this outlook to the three dwarves. I never really thought about it, but after a while I did come to accept Fili as a Dwarf quite easily, as with Thorin, even if I feel that Thorin in terms of age looks hilariously and almost heinously inaccurate, especially when compared to Balin, a dwarf younger than him. But, I’d like to ask, why is it you think they chose to not really give Kili as much dwarven traits as, say, his brother?
I’m not talking make them all fat and look shorter (I’d like that, but I know why they chose not too, after all it didn’t work on Gimli at all right? -_-), but no, I’m talking simple things. Fili has braids, a nice beard thing going on, looks overall thicker, etc. Kili, I would honestly not be shocked by seeing him amongst the Rangers of Arnor or somesuch. Plain dirty hair, short stuble which I swear is shorter even than Aragorns, and no real attempt to make him seem big at all. Ori feels like more of a dwarf than he does.
Do you think there was some reason to this? I feel we could still grow to like him if he had these aspects, and I’m wondrous as to why they didn’t seem to even attempt them.
I’d also like to raise the point; you argued this was all done to make it easier to connect with these three dwarves, essentially the protagonists of the Dwarves, void Balin. But, did we not all come to love Gimli? He was short, stout, covered in armour, had not many lines compared to Legolas or Aragorn, and had a HUGE beard covering his face, and often times a helm too. Yet I feel that many people who aren’t in either Group A (So hot) or Group B (Not dwarven) would say they loved Gimli, and would’ve cried had he died or been risked or some other sort.
It simply interests me, and I do love the opportunity to pick the brain of someone who has actually made me think these designs may have been for good purpose, rather than just fanservice (which I fear deeply in the next two films).
Anyway, thank you! Brilliant work.
swordwhale, Teanna Byerts said:
I rambled on about this before, somewhere, beyond trying to appeal to a broader audience (young women), the key (big sciencey) word is: pedomorphosis. That is, juvenile characteristics. Babies, human, gorilla, bonobo and chimp babies, look awfully similar. As they grow, they diverge. Puppies all look like puppies… then they become border collies, corgis, labs, wolves… Dwarves, Humans, elves, Hobbits, would look very similar at a young age. F, er, Kili is still young enough to look not much different from a young human.
archedcory1 said:
Kili might not be considered battle-ready yet, but anatomically he’s a grown up already.
Of course, human grown ups also look different at the age of 20 or 60, but still human without a doubt.
Hmm…. if human babies looked like gorilla babies I would actually consider getting one after all. ;)
archedcory1 said:
I have no clue why they made Kili like that. If you know the Weta Chronicles books, they did have some earlier designs for him that looked a lot more dwarven than the current design. I have no clue why they abandoned them, AT still looked hot in many of those. So… *shrugs*, I guess we just have to accept that.
I personally never liked movie Gimli as he was only portrayed as a joke and not as the proud dwarf of the book. Despite not being a dwarf fan back then (HA!) I really hated his movie portrayal most. He was the comic relief of the trilogy, nothing else. It wouldn’t have mattered to me if movie Gimli died either.
So, I can’t answer you that question as I have a personal problem with that portrayal in the first place.
Thank YOU for stopping by. :)
Misty said:
Great post! I noticed some of these things only now that I have read your article and particularly looked for them. E.g. Thorin smiling at someone after entering Bag End. But I believe it is only Kili he smiles at, if you watch when the camera turns, Fili is standing on the other side, not in the angle Thorin is turned when smiling.
I read in many of the comments that Kili is rash and reckless. I do not think so. He is just young. And the kind of behavior he has simply goes with being young. It is the characteristic of young people to love life, to make jokes, to have fun, to react to things the way he does. Think of our teenagers. And he is just inexperienced. He has not been through all what Thorin has been. He grew up in Ered Luin, in a life of plenty. Hence maybe some of his ‘reckless’ reactions. And yet, he is spirited, good-hearted, open-minded and smart. And in spite of being inexperienced in battle, he is such a talented warrior. Think of the scene in goblin town when he first stops the arrows with his sword – very talented – and then with a quick thought uses the ladder to stop more of the arrows and then uses it as a weapon against the goblins and finally as a bridge over the hole – very smart.
In fact, I think he is so much like Thorin. Did you ever think of why it is Kili who is presented in a way resembling Thorin, and why it is not Fili who is the heir of Thorin? In the book they are both dressed in blue, just like Thorin, but in the film it is only Kili! And he has dark hair just like Thorin, his hairstyle is also similar, and even his beard (very little though) is worn in the same style as Thorin’s, while Fili looks very different from these aspects (blond hair etc.). It looks as if Kili were presented as more of being the true heir of Thorin. And as Thorin behaves with him, it seems as if he were seeing young himself in Kili (and again, the way PJ presented Kili’s looks somehow reaffirms this).
As for the orc joke, it is exactly what Kili said: they did not mean anything by it. Of course they did not. Because they could not. They grew up in Ered Luin and had no real idea of what an actual orc attack is like. They are inexperienced and have never been in battle neither with orcs nor with anybody else. And that makes the joke remain what it was: an ‘innocent’ joke (though not quite nice). And Thorin’s reaction is so intensive because he, as opposed to the brothers, did see and knows very well what an orc attack means – and what a battle or even war with orcs means. So behind his seeming anger as he scolds the brothers (or Kili) I believe it is the burdens of his terrible past, the bitterness he bears, and that he is worried for his nephews and would want to protect them.
Btw. did you notice how the expression on Thorin’s face changes during Balin is telling the story of Moria? Beside the bitterness, first it is dominated by anger and wrath, but by the end it is heartjerking pain.
As for Fili and Kili objecting to Thorin’s behavior in the book and would rather want to solve the issue of sharing or not sharing the treasure peacefully may well be because they are inexperienced. They have never been in real battle before (save the fights during their way), they lived a calm life in the Blue Mountains and do not know what it really means to really fight for something – both physically and mentally –, like Thorin did in all his life, bearing the burdens of his past, and the expectations towards him to regain Erebor and the treasure of his people, and when he fulfilled it there comes Bard and the elvenking wanting to take it, and by arrogant forcing (see my comment on it more elaborated under ‘In Defense of Thorin Oakenshield’ if interested).
I have also read in a comment that Thorin was reckless when entering into the fight with Azog before the eagle scene. I do not think so. Could you imagine a battle hardened proud warrior leader as he is to just stand there and not facing his enemy? No way. And besides this, Azog provoked him right from the beginning. First by saying nasty words on his father. And then, do you remember the expression on Azog’s face, obviously challenging Thorin? And of course he could not stand it long, the ocean of anger, bitterness and pain burst out of him soon. And who could have blamed him for that after all he had been through? And do you think he would have missed the chance to take revenge, anyway? He was even expected to do so. To take revenge for his grandfather (as Azog in the film was not dead as he was in the book). And it was his fight and his alone.
As for the ending of the film, most or all of us, including me, dread it. As for Thorin’s, Fili’s and Kili’s death, opinions vary whether they should or should not die in the film. I do believe that it would be such a shock and too deviant from and even unfair and unworthy (hope this is the right word, sorry for my English) to the original story of the book if PJ changed the ending and I am sure he will not, though of course I myself would in my heart prefer them surviving and know that I will cry my eyes out. So why not making alternative endings then? Of course not in the film presented in the cinemas but maybe on the DVD. This would not be the first film that is offered alternative endings on the DVD. And I think this compromise everybody could endure.
lucy0510 said:
Archedcory: thank you so much for your essay! I’m so happy that I found this blog!
Misty, I’m totally with you! You are speaking out of my heart! I totally like the relationship between Thorin, Fili and Kili. And I’m looking forward discovering new details about it! All the emotion you could see on their faces, and in their eyes: the pride and love, Thorin feels for his nephews, the worries, if they are in danger. his desperation believing Fili was crushed by the stone giants, the pain about his past…And also Fili and Kili often show their feeling for Thorin and for each other: the way, Fili is shouting for Thorin when they are sitting on the eagle, the shame of Kili, when Thorin reprimands him because of his ork-joke, the desperation when they are separated by the stone giants.
I’m so looking forward seeing the other films, but I suppose I will need a lot of handkerchiefs for the end…
Is there anybody from Germany writing in this blog?
I tried the German synchronizing and it’s awful! Thorins voice is much too high, the dwarfs don’t have a dialect at all, this wasn’t a good choice! I’m just looking it in the original!
Eniliph said:
I can’t stand the German version as well! Exactly due to the point you mentioned with Thorins voice! When he first speaks, he tells Balin to call up a guard. In English I was really struck by his deep, full voice. (As a singer, I especially noticed! ;) ) And then the German synchronisation was so high and not at all impressive!
The thing with the dialects however is always like that. They hardly ever bring in the accents and dialects in the synchronisation – sadly! I’ve watched it in some other languages, too, and as far as I can tell, they didn’t pay attention to it either.
Melian said:
Lucy, I am from Germany too and Misty was begging me to answer, because at the moment I am here not so often, so I oversaw your post. I totally agree with all you wrote, I made a character-study of Thorin since the beginning of this year and I have the same opinion as you about all of that.
Also about the German synchro…Bilbo was good, Gandalf too, but the dwarves I like much more with their dialect in origin…and Thorins German voice….NOOOIO…I dont want to comment much about that! Too high, too less emotion, and about the German song I keep silence at all! When I was listen to the Carrock-scene first time..to Richards voice I almost broke down from that ! In some scenes like Thorin vs Goblinking the synchto changed complete the whole atmosphere of the scene! Terrible! If I am alone (my husband, children and some friends speak not so good English to watch a movie in origin) I ONLY watch the original!
And about the end of the trilogy I refuse to think now further…out of a certain cause…If you want to contact me you may look at the facebook -page Thorin Oakenshield by the admin of THIS page here…there you can found me as Melian vom Michelshain. I am glad to meet also some German Thorin-fans here…
archedcory1 said:
I watched the German version only once and was not impressed at all. On the other hand it would sound a lot weirder as well if they suddenly started to talk in different German dialects. let’s better stick to the English version there. ;)
lucy0510 said:
I also could just watch movies in the original version without my husband, his english is also not good enough to understand the context of the films. The last time I watched the hobbit on our laptop with earphone, so I could also understand the comments in the backround, really very nice!
@ archedcory: you are right with the dialects, I didn’t thought of how they should have managed this. Dwarves with Switzer dialect? Better not :-)
@melian: I’m sorry, I don’t have a facebook account. But I think, I’m going to be on this blog very often. I like to write and discuss themes about the hobbit with you guys, I’m so looking forward to it!
@eniliph: I also was struck by Thorins voice when I first heard it in the original! Wow… what a difference!
Misty said:
Hi Lucy, The Hungarian synchron is not that bad, but does not even come near the original. But let us admit Richard’s voice is just uncomparable and unmatchable. I like to watch it in the original as well. Also because sometimes there are misinterpretations. Or even when it is interpreted correctly, I mean the words used are correct, still they do not reflect the same feeling and atmosphere. I realized that in some scenes as well. So to watch in original is best.
If you want to read another very good writing on this blog (if you have not read it yet) then read In Defense of Thorin Oakenshield: A Journey from Hero to Villain and Back Again. Of course all the other writings are awesome here (that is why I love this blog) but this I found so interesting (it is linked on the right side of the page).
Sorry you do not have a facebook account, we could have met also there. We are having interesting and wonderful discussions with Melian there, about the film, Thorin’s character, on how we see things, also in view of my fanfiction which follows the film (it is linked to this website under Fanfiction in case you happen to be interested). Welcome on board!
lucy0510 said:
Hi Misty, thanks for your reply and for your welcome. Yeah, Richard’s voice is indeed uncomparable and unmatchable! I love the way he sings at bilbos house… very gentle with his deep voice. I also like Ian McKellen’s voice in the original. I think it fits perfectly to a wizard. Bilbo’s voice in the german synchronisation was ok in my opinion.
Perhaps I will register in facebook :-) I saw the writing you mentioned, but I haven’t read it yet. There are so many very interesting essays and discussions, I need more time to spend at reading them all :-)
Did you read my comment to the scene at bilbo’s house, with Fili tossing the plates at Kili? Perhaps I’m interpreting too much in their relationship… but I like the scene :-)
Misty said:
Hi Lucy, yes, Ian’s voice and the way he uses it really fits a wizard. The style as well. Gentle when that is approporiate and roaring when that is appropriate (like at Bag End when they do not trust his choice of Bilbo).
If you decide to register on facebook, I would most welcome you as friend. We could have good discussions also there. You may find me as Mariann Pajorné Dombi. If you want to know, I did not have a facebook account before either. I only registered to be able to communicate with Melian there :-) Awesome discussions.
If you have not yet read that writing In Defense of Thorin Oakenshield, I can strongly recommend it. That was the first essay I read on this blog and I can assure you it is very good. It is written by D.J., the admin of this page and it is great. Also the comments after it are worth reading very much.
Yes, I did read your comment on the scene in Bilbo’s house. I also rewatched it, focusing on what you said. And I think you may well be right. It is Fili who starts playing with the plates, and it is Kili he draws in, who joins immediately as if it were the most natural thing in the world. And they ‘work’ together so well. Like brothers in close relationship do :-) And it can be seen all through the film that they do have a special and strong relationship (like the stone giant scene when they are separated as you also mentioned) and also with Thorin. It is always detectable that Thorin has deep feelings for his nephews, even if he does not tend to show feelings too much.
lucy0510 said:
There is one scene at bilbos house I also like very much: when Fili is tossing all the plates to Kili, Kili could just catch it without even a glance to his brother. This looks so well-rehearsed, as if they now every move the other will make. Of course the other dwarves are doing the same (more or less smart), but with Fili and Kili doing it, it has a special touch. Do you know what I mean?
I suspect I will loose myself in all the new details I discover everytime I watch the movie again. Now I’m offical Hobbit-addicted.
Melian said:
I also discover new details in every time I watch the movie….also at the 13. time! And you are right with Fili and Kili and their interaction…there is a strong bond between them, the stone-giant-scene showes that very impressive too…the expressions of Kilis face when he thought Fili is lost…terrible moment…also to watch it…a foresight to the 3. movie I fear! But a similar connection is between Thorin and Dwalin in the film: their amazing team-work at the trollfight…the fact that Dwalin in Bagend seemed to know befor asking that Dain will not send an army…his question was rhetoric indeed as you can see at his face while Thorins answer. Dwalins desperate try to reach Thorin at the Azog-scene, to protect him…but that damned branch was breaking and costed more of that expensive time…I guess both are like brothers. Dwalin is like a “brother in arms” since he lost Frerin, his real brother…they may practise weapon-art together, they know what the other one will do befor he does. If there will be a situation ever (and mybe it WILL be in the last film) that someone have to stop Thorin in doing something incorrectable, that someone has to protect Thorin from himself…then that person probably will be Dwalin, I feel…He is the best friend ever for Thorin and he has a true and soft inside which can hardly be seen through his hard and fierce outside. I have a big sympathy for that external raw warrior!
I would be glad to meet you too at facebook where we also can communicate in German then, Lucy!
lucy0510 said:
@Misty & Melian: I’ve got a facebook acount, I’m Antje Mehrlich.
DeeDee said:
Have you seen the wonderful scene with Thorin and his nephews in the Goblin Cave? Right after they all fall down and land in this huge baskett? You can see Thorin facing Fili and Kili, then the Goblins are coming and drag him away…he reaches out to his nephews and they try to grab his arms? I almost missed this scene, because everything happend so fast….I had to slow down the speed. ;-)
Melian said:
I missed it indeed, I saw not all you desciped..I will look for it next time…thanks..
she writes love in ink said:
Thank you for sharing this!!! I really enjoyed reading it, I am very close to Thorin, Fili, and Kili… A friend and I spend many hours discussing the three dwarfs and their characters. I have seen and agree with a lot of the points you have given here. Whoever said Fili and Kili are without character must be seriously on something.
Cara said:
This article I found incredibly interesting and very heartfelt! But i was rather curious when you mentioned the stone giants. Since Fili is my most favorite dwarf I devoted an entire afternoon to watching the movie and pinpointing where he was at each scene. During the stone giant scenes he gets carried off on the leg of an awakening giant and when it came crashing back into the mountain side I noticed that Thorin had called out the wrong name (I watch movies with subtitles so when I quote them I get them right). Instead of calling out for Fili he called out for Kili. I knew what he meant but it has always bothered me that no one else had picked up on that little mistake. I just hope that I’m not just going nuts and am looking for some reassurance that I’m not mistaken.
Again I love your article!! It was very well done!!
Cara said:
I forgot to mention that you have excellent word quality. Sorry had to sneak that in!!
archedcory1 said:
Thanks for the kind words. :)
I have to admit I wrote this article after my first screening of the movie and hardly altered it since. Meaning… I am well aware of that stone giant issue, just never felt like changing it here. :)
Jin said:
Beautifully written. /applause
Proper Jin-ius ϟ (@risenning) said:
Oh and may i ask which scene were you referring to when u say “When he reaches out for Fili but can’t grasp his hand, Kili is truly horrified.” Is it the troll scene or?
Cos i would rly liek to see that and just go all emotional haha thanks
Proper Jin-ius ϟ (@risenning) said:
Is it the one before they fell into the goblin cave? Ok i got it. thanks for this beautifully written article (:
archedcory1 said:
Stone-giants!
Jazzy said:
Woow, good job! I
Laily Othman said:
I only noticed the special attention Thorin gave to those two boys from the 1st movie. It wasn’t too obvious, but if you look closely, you’ll never miss it. So I started searching the internet for more info and I saw this article. Amazing!!! Everything you wrote, I noticed as well! All the small things from Thorin smiling at his nephews (it was only Kili), to Thorin shouting Kili’s name during the Stone Giant scene. I love this article! I also read everybody’s comment, all interesting comments.
I think PJ tried to distinguish Thorin, Fili and Kili from the rest of the company because they are the main characters, and because they are royalty. That’s why they are more good looking than the rest. That is only my humble opinion.
I noticed Kili is almost always gets screentime (I’m not complaining, I like him hihihi), but Fili sometimes are nowhere to be seen. Eg. during the troll scene when Bilbo tried to delay the trolls, I had to look very closely at every dwarf to look for Fili. He was actually on the ground, at Kili’s feet. Another scene is in the goblin cave. Kili is right in front, Thorin is at the back, but no Fili. He is actually at the back of someone, I think Bofur, you can only see his hair. Poor Fili. Well maybe he’ll get more screentime in the 3rd movie.
One other thing I’ve seen, in Rivendell, during the night scene when Bofur was roasting the sausages, you can actually see other dwarves were sitting on the ground, but Kili was sitting on a bench. This shows he’s of higher standard than the others. Just a small thing I noticed and nobody’s mentioned it before.
I’ve seen the 2nd movie (twice), and it was awesome! Can’t wait to see the 3rd.
mmgilchrist said:
I think there may still have been issues re: the change of casting, hence Fíli’s invisibility in some scenes.
Amanda said:
Liked this a lot!
karina said:
Hey i may be wrong but in the book it says they don’t have weapons, or there’s no mention of them until they found orcrist everyone else got knives and stuff too. I’m not trying to be rude I’m probably wrong or saw something different so in case i am im sorry.
zanido1991 said:
I think you are totally correct in your observations of the deep interaction between the Dwarves of Durin. It irritates me that some people are too shallow to notice these small details.
Alexandra Grey said:
I really, really enjoyed this article even though it’s quite old, written after the first film came out. I’ve never enjoyed the book (I know, heresy!), vastly preferring LOTR, but I’ve watched the films over and over and over, and every time I see something new in the relationship between the three dwarves. I’ll watch again and look for the subtleties in the acting that AC noted in the original article. I wish AC would write an updated version of this now the final film has been released; I’d love to know his/her full thoughts now! Having seen the final film twice in theater, I can attest: dust always manages to get in my eyes when Kili dies. He’s easily my favorite of the Company, perhaps as much as I like Thorin and RA’s incredible portrayal. I wish he’d had more screen time, and a greater opportunity for both brothers to show their full characters.
archedcory1 said:
Here is my opinion in quick: To me Kili acted completely out of character in the end. Everything they built up in the first two movies wasn’t considered at all. I am still confused about that…
Dion said:
Nice article, I hope you’ll write a new one for the last film, you obviously notice details that I don’t. You have definitely helped me see more hints of their relationship. I was still a bit disappointed by the small amount of screen time that Fili got compared to Kili. But then again, I’ll always want more screen time for the characters I love. I have to admit, Kili and Fili (especially Fili to me) being the handsome ones does play a part for me, but it’s the total package that makes them such interesting characters.
I read the book after I saw the movie and was a bit disappointed by how little the characters are described. The story is great, but I don’t love the way it’s written very much, it just seems so short and lacking, after seeing how well the movie takes the time to tell the story and just enhance the story that’s already there. I loved how easily distinguishable all the dwarves were in the movies, not just by their looks, but by their character traits and quirks as well. What I meant to say was, to me Fili and Kili are hot, but they and the 11 other dwarves don’t have to rely on looks to be interesting. Their whole character is interesting.
AnnaD said:
I want ask you , there is scene where is fili and thorin on stone talking but i cant find this scene so can you tell me ?