Guest contributor Susan Messer Chan compares two of the supporting heroes from The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit; Aragorn and Thorin Oakenshield.
*Book spoilers*
Thorin Oakenshield: Tolkien’s Inimitable Hero
by Susan Messer Chan
Most of us are well acquainted with the warrior hero at the center of J.R.R. Tolkien’s epic literary masterpiece, The Lord of the Rings. Aragorn is the reluctant human heir to the Gondorian throne. Sporting the illustrious Dunedain bloodline, he bravely accepts his fate and leaps into action as bodyguard to the erstwhile Hobbits placed in his charge. In addition to having an intact kingdom to return to, he also possesses the undying love of the most beautiful maiden in the land, Princess Arwen of Rivendell.
Aragorn is noble to be sure. He is the sort of man anyone would want alongside them in a battle. His will is iron clad, his loyalty unshakeable, and his strength of character unimpeachable. In short, Aragorn is unlike any flesh and blood human being that has ever existed. When faced with the One Ring he barely flinches. Staring down the wrath of Sauron’s forces, he charges into the fray without a moment’s hesitation. Aragorn is not troubled by seeds of self-doubt or flagrant fear. He is, in short, a representation of what we all wish that we could be, but know that we cannot possibly live our lives upon such lofty moral cliffs.
Herein lays a conundrum. How can we truly invest in a character that doesn’t resemble us in the deepest sense as imperfect creatures? Aragorn is an ideal to strive after. He is not representative of the complexities that define everyday life on Earth. We, as human beings, are deeply flawed. We hold grudges, we feel jealousy, we get unreasonably angry, we slander, we lie, we distrust, we are weak more often than we are strong, and we fear the unknown intensely.
However, there are times in our lives when we are forgiving, altruistic, patient, honest, valiant, and self-sacrificing. These are fleeting moments for most of us, but they can come at truly character defining occasions. These moments can change our own fates and the fates of those around us.
Thorin Oakenshield is a hero in this vein. Though a dwarf, Tolkien imbued him with far more relevant qualities than his actual human characters. Thorin is flawed in many ways. He can be arrogant, prideful, suspicious, unyielding, shortsighted, brash, ill-tempered, fearful, greedy, and vengeful. He is full of contradictions and emotional complexities. He is brilliantly reminiscent of our own species.
Thorin witnesses the loss of his birthright, the loss of his family, and the loss of his station in life. Unlike Aragorn, however, he doesn’t spend his time enjoying the privileged company of elves or romancing lovely ladies. Thorin has to rally his people. As the rightful King Under the Mountain, he is the one that they look to in this harrowing time. Though he is full of bitter indignation and self-doubt, he takes up the mantle and determines to reclaim his ancestral homeland once again.
In contrast to Aragorn, Thorin is a king without an actual kingdom, he is a leader stripped of any real semblance of an army, he is an aristocrat stripped of his honor. He is representative of life. It is full of hardship, failure, and disappointment. Yet, just like most of us, Thorin holds onto an inner spark that illuminates his path in the darkest of hours. For, no matter what obstacle is tossed his way, Thorin never gives up on the hope that somehow, some way, he will prevail. Despite his shortcomings, he is a leader worth following. For, it is in those desolate moments that he finally finds the courage, the strength of character, and the conviction to give himself up to something far greater than himself. He discovers beneficence in the process and becomes truly transcendent.
Thorin Oakenshield is Tolkien’s finest example of the flawed, highly complex warrior hero. He resonates with a realism that we can grasp hold of. Aragorn, on the other hand, is far too pat moralistically speaking. The Son of Arathorn gets his shiny crown, his beautiful Elven bride, his brood of heirs, and gets to enjoy a long, peaceful life. Our dwarfish king, on the other hand, does not get to enjoy any of the fruits of his long labors. Thorin does not get the kingdom, the girl, or a long life. Instead, the valiant warrior dies from battle wounds, without an heir. He represents the harsh reality of human existence. Life is finite and often times inequitable. Yet, despite this fact, it is still a journey worth taking. For along its winding path, we discover an eternal truth. Each and every one of us possesses the seeds of the divine and we have but to reach deep within and grasp onto its budding tendrils to transmute the mundane. Tolkien understood this and he crafted his dwarf king into a paragon of human tenacity and potential.
Thorin Oakenshield represents each and every one of us. The good, the bad, and the immutable.
fedoralady said:
Excellent, Susan, and thanks for sharing it here, DJ. I have to confess I prefer my heroes to have some flaws. I can relate to them and their struggles so much better that way than someone who is “too good to be true.”
D.J. said:
I normally prefer my heroes to be villains, and vice versa. :)
fedoralady said:
I wonder if that’s why I like Guy so much. He’s classified as an evil henchman, and yet I always rooted for him to win out over Robin, who annoyed the heck out of me. ;) NTM Guy had the original Boss from Hell.
I like Richard’s approach of looking for bad in the good guy and the good in the bad guy. Keeps character more three-dimensional, I think.
fedoralady said:
Reblogged this on the armitage effect and commented:
*spoilers for book/final movie* Here is an excellent essay by Susan Chan featured at DJ’s blog. Doesn’t this complex, conflicted, flawed hero just scream “Richard Armitage?” As if he was born to play role.
april73 said:
Bravo Susan, great post. :-)
Thanks Dark Jackal for sharing it. :-)
Gratiana Lovelace said:
Great essay! I will provide a link to it on my Sunday blog post section in the comments about THAUJ related reviews.
Heraclitus said “Character is destiny.” And I always like to add that, and the choices we make define our character. So, Thorin’s choices helped to define his character and his destiny. His path might not have been easy nor linear, but his journey served to create the King of the Dwarves that he ultimately became.
Ewelina said:
I agree with the part about Thorin, I love flawed characters – that’s why Boromir was my favorite hero in the LOTR movies (not so much in the book though) and that is why Thorin will probably be my beloved hero in “The Hobbit” (I’m still waiting for the pre-premiere in my country). But stating such severe accusations against Aragorn is unfair.
Aragorn, before he joined the Fellowship of the Ring, did not spend his time romancing elven ladies. He and the other rangers of the North fought to keep the peace among the lands of once fallen Arnor and beyond. “By the blood of our people are your lands kept safe” says Boromir on the Council of Elrond talking about Gondor and this makes Aragorn discontent. Many sacrifices made by these brave people, with Aragorn at the lead, were never witnessed or told about because they happened far away from the eyes of the hobbits, or the dwarves, or other humans as well. What’s more, Aragorn did not arrive in a kingdom ready for ruling. If he didn’t take the Paths of the Dead there would be no kingdom to return to! And this required courage that can only be compared with Frodo’s path through the Minas Morgul Valley and the Cirith Ungol. The whole journey, that the Fellowship had to take, was filled with dramatic choices and events, just like the journey the dwarves have taken so this was Aragorn’s price for returning too. Also, don’t judge him by people who love him – in the extended edition of FOTR Aragorn leaves Arwen giving her back her necklace (= love). If that wasn’t a price worthy of a kingdom, I can’t think what is! Thorin never had to face a choice like that. And this is far beyond simply “getting the girl” at the end. It’s about the final reward for all you had to bare. Thorin wasn’t interested in having a family (he had plenty of time for that in Ered Luin and yet he did not marry), his heart belonged to the Arkenstone, which – at the very end – was his ultimate reward, the one he put before all others. Yes, he didn’t get a long life and that’s heartbreaking, but he didn’t have to choose to give the Arkenstone away to fulfill his destiny.
Some people say that it is Thorin who actually got the kingdom for free (he didn’t kill the dragon), but I disagree with that – because of the perilous journey to Erebor and for the Battle of Five Armies of course. And you know, I don’t think that the great battles at the end were the biggest prices to pay for both of our kings. I believe it was in fact taking the very first step of their journey and accepting that once you tread on the path of fate, you cannot go back, and that you’ll be forced to accept your destiny no matter what it brings. I think the hardest choice for Aragorn and Thorin was leaving the life they had, imagining the greatest possible horrors, with death (not only their own but also the death of people for whom they cared) and failure at the very end, but non the less deciding to do it.
Also, please remember that originally, in the book, Thorin’s quest is not so much about the kingdom itself (unlike Aragorn’s) but mainly about the gold and the profits. It’s PJ who made the homeland issue more relevant than its wealth (and thank god for that because if it was only about the gold I wouldn’t relate to Thorin at all!). Aragorn, yes (and especially in the book) is so ideal he’s almost impossible to believe in. But “almost” is important. I think that Aragorn represents what humanity, at its very best, may be, whereas Thorin represents humanity the way it is (and the brighter side of it too, I might add). But that doesn’t mean I can’t relate to Aragorn as much as in Thorin’s case. If you don’t believe that somewhere out there, on the normal Earth, not Middle-Earth, you can encounter someone like Aragorn then we have no faith in humanity left. And that’s why I find LOTR so enchanting – because, quoting Terry Pratchett’s “Going postal”, it offers us the greatest treasure, which is HOPE :)
Susan Messer Chan said:
Wonderful commentary Ewelina. Your statement about Thorin not being interested in a family is interesting in light of the recent revelation that PJ may be working in a backstory that shows that Thorin had a fiancee that was lost to him when Smaug attacked Erebor. I’m not sure how I feel about this idea. I can understand it from an emotional angle. It will give Thorin an extra layer of pathos in the films, but as a dwarf he was still quite young at the time of the siege and would not have likely been interested in marriage and family yet. I’m interested to hear what others think about this proposed storyline…
Ewelina said:
Cheers, Susan :)
D.J. said:
I found the original article from Hollywood.com for this quote about love interests:
“Hoping to beef up Thorin’s emotional arc, Armitage discussed with Boyens the addition of backstory elements that would reveal that the dwarf prince lost a loved one. ‘A princess or someone he was betrothed to,’ as Armitage describes it. ‘It was never something they were going to explore but I did keep it in my head that perhaps he was once in love, and it ended with Smaug. He’s focused on other things in his life.'” http://www.hollywood.com/news/The_Hobbit_An_Unexpected_Journey_Richard_Armitage_Thorin_Oakenshield_Interview/46160788
Doesn’t seem like we are going to be seeing this in a flashback. I think it would be plausible though since we don’t know the exact age of Jackson’s version of Thorin at the time of Erebor. Even human teens have crushes and first loves.
susanmesser7 said:
Tolkien is pretty adamant about his viewpoint on Dwarf men and amore. He says that Dwarf men don’t fancy their female counterparts for the most part-for the first one hundred plus years of life, instead choosing to focus upon manly pursuits. Many never marry and if they do so, it is much later in life when they succumb to the pressure of “doing their duty.” He later stated that the race dies out because dwarf men are so disinterested in mating.
Dwarves lived approximately 250 years. It is stated in the film that the Battle of Azanulbizar took place one hundred years before the events in The Hobbit. He was born in 2746 of the Third Age. He died at the Battle of the Five Armies in 2941. It is also stated that Smaug invaded Erebor in the year 2770-when Thorin was only 24 years old. This is like being a preteenager in human years. Given the dwarves propensity for putting off romance until well after middle age (approximately 125 years old) I find it almost impossible to reconcile any possible storyline claiming that Thorin had a romantic interest that was cooked alive by Smaug during his conquest of Erebor. I love RA. I love PJ. But, I will not be happy if this ends up in the film! I”ll get over it…but, will sulk quite a lot!!
swordwhale said:
Excellent insights!
June Murray said:
Thank You Susan for so eloquantly expressing something I have always felt. I love tLOR for its epic storyline and it’s conversation of good and evil. The charcters as presented even in the books were distant and indistinct as people. THey were more symbolic elements than individuals. Even with PJ’s brilliance and Vigo’s incredible acting we still couldn’t really “warm up to them”. The most empathetic emotions I felt were towards Faramir who seemingly represented the most human individual in the story. The quiet hero that never gets recognized. I think it has a lot to do with Tolkien’s writing style. He seems far more interested in getting the symbolic themes across than attach us to individual characters. The HObbit is lighter but still somewhat vague on the other characters he utilizes for the story. More focused on Dwarves in general than any individual dwarf precisely. HE does present Thorin as proud, arrogant, suspicious and at times insufferably entitled. It is actually our own humanity that sympathizes and creates the humanity in Thorin. Tolkien only shows us Thorin’s outward behavior no inner dialogue, a few clues about his past experiences and we have to supply the rest according to our own imagination. This is why the camp is divided on Thorin, is he worth following simply because he is the heir to the throne and “a very important dwarf” as Tolkien informs us on introduction or do we relate to his passion and empathize with his sense of loss and great responsibility. I am one of those who truly adored Thorin from the moment of his introduction into the story through what I saw as Bilbo’s betrayal, to the death bed confession in the end. I am well aware that this has everything to do with my own personal life experiences as well as my age at the time of first reading the story. I later came to be pretty evenly split as to the right and wrong or rather the expectedness of all the characters behavior. I think as an adult with much life experience I think Tolkien conveyed very clearly that “this is how conflict starts, this is how wars happen” Fear, prejudice, greed, pride misunderstanding and the unwillingness to forgive past offences in others” THere’s a sense of helplessness or frustration over our own inability to surpass these individual personality traits and collectively “Do the right thing” that pervades Tolkien’s work. I think perhaps pervades our mythologies and our psyches as well. We need “perfect” heros to truly lead us to overcome our flaws as is evidenced by the human races fascination, even obsession with religeos belief systems. This is Aragorn Role, divinty much needed in times of great crises or tormoil when we feel we’ve been sucked into a nightmare we don’t want and can’t control. Thorin on the other hand represents the choices we make willingly, individually, everyday. At any point Thorin could turn back, and the fate of the world at large would remain uneffected. In fact Thorin’s choice not to turn back can be argued as a catalyst to harming the world at large as Elrond initially points out albeit crypticly. Aragorn in essence had no real choice here, if he didn’t act not only himself but everone would lose. IN fact Aragorn spends eons running from his fate and salving his conscience by “doing small works of good anonymously” . The prevailing feeling is that Aragorn didn’t want to be the leader, too humble to be the king, unwilling to accept responsibility, wishing only to be a normal person. In the end he has the choice forced upon him really by others, he steps up beautiful, if only because to fail is to die, literally. For Thorin he is willing to take on the responsibility and in fact does so throughout his life openly and proudly, the decision to reclaim his homeland is his own choice because he always recognizes that he has to and does not flinch or need convincing. For Thorin not acting would be death psychically (figuratively). So who is the real hero, the one who runs and hides from who he truly is or the one who stands up and embraces it. Both overcome thier fears and face thier fates but one because he is expected to by others and one because he knows he needs to for his own survival. Two kinds of heros, that represent two kinds of conflicts that we all have to draw on our inner hero to overcome at different times in our lives. In the end Aragorn lives literally but dies figurativly to himself for the good of all.(sacrifice). Thorin dies literally but lives figurative as himself to the last and will live in memory as who he truly is. (self fulfillment). I’d rather be Thorin! I’m reminded of a favorite saying of mine,” I’d rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I’m not” Thanks again D.J. for sharing this.
Susan Messer Chan said:
I agree with you about having to fill in the blanks on Thorin’s character. That’s exactly what I did as a little girl. I saw in him something that I could identify with and I expanded upon that over the decades until he became a larger than life inspirational figure to me. I’m just really glad that they found the right actor for the part in the film! I was terrified that the portrayal would ruin the image that I had carefully constructed over the years. Kudos to PJ and Richard Armitage for making Thorin even more amazing than I had imagined him to be :)
D.J. said:
Well thank you, June, for further elaborating on how long time fans of the character feel about the issue. As you have shown it is much more complex than it appears.
swordwhale said:
Archetype, archetype, archetype. Not stereotype. Tolkien wrote with enough spaces in his descriptions of characters so we can all fill in the blanks with our own experience (at whatever age and level of experience we are). I too, feel his style is Big Epic Themes. The archetypal characters do not age with each new generation of readers; they resonate anew because we all recognize ourselves in them.
Susan Messer Chan said:
Thanks everyone!
andromaca82 said:
Thaks for sharing such interesting thoughts!
hotdwarflovin said:
Reblogged this on Welcome to my Halls! and commented:
The art is awesome too!
Susan Messer Chan said:
thanks!!
lepingy said:
hmmmm, i always thought Boromir would be the one that share more similar qualities with Thorin—Both have flaws, equally arragont and stubborn at one points (or another ), have the heart to fight for his people, doing whatever he needed to, even if for a brief moment, that might have made him the “villain” >_< I love them both.
Susan Messer Chan said:
DJ has hinted that I should now write an essay comparing/contrasting Thorin and Boromir. I am inclined to do so over the holiday. I’ll post that one for commentary as soon as it’s finished :)
D.J. said:
Hinted? How about demanded, gently. :)
Susan Messer Chan said:
LOL
krystenwilcoxon said:
Reblogged this on lifeglittr and commented:
I’m seeing the Hobbit tomorrow and I’m super excited!
Susan Messer Chan said:
Thanks :)
saraleee said:
I really enjoyed your essay, Susan! As you said, we really do have to “fill in the blanks” to make the character of Thorin come alive, but the sketch we are given in the book can be colored in to create a remarkable and vivid character.
Whatever Aragorn’s difficulties and doubts might have been, I agree with you that Thorin is more complex and more prickly. That makes him fascinating, and in the end, tragic.
susanmesser7 said:
Thanks saraleee :) Peter Jackson and Richard Armitage definitely deserve a boatload of credit for building upon Thorin’s legend!
Grim Helbeard said:
Foremost, I’d like to thank Susan for her reflective and contemplative articles. Your writing is further complimented by your art inspiring beauty. The ‘Lady of Light’ would be envious.
I initially responded to your post regarding Thorin’s Norse influences, and would like to apologize for my failure to spellcheck my submission. The use of ‘comprehensive’ in the same sentence twice … is nearly as inexcusable as a beardless dwarf.
Initially questioning Thorin’s more conservative image for the film – I’ve found myself associating with him more so than any other Middle Earth character. Having seen the film twice – I was impressed by the substantial depictions of Erebor and of Thorin’s lineage. Not surprisingly – I’m particular to the Dwarves and their Norse inspired characteristics.
For those like Susan – who are familiar with Scandinavian mythology – the Dwarves culture shares a similarity to the Norse’s value of Honor. Thorin’s pride is in his family’s lineage and that of his race’s ancestry. His uncompromising drive to reclaim Erebor for the Dwarves is as much a quest for reclaiming his peoples honor as Boromir’s passion was to restore the grandeur of Gondor to the heirs of Numenor.
Thorin and Boromir are not so much flawed, as they are humbled by mortality and their moral obligations to their family’s heritage – to struggle and sacrifice themselves – as examples of moral nobility when the world seems to be shadowed by tragedy and hopelessness. The world will always look to heros who struggle through the hardships and suffer with us – rather than from those reigning over us from shining pedestals of superiority.
Tolkien’s fiction inspired a passion in my Scandinavian heritage, and in my ancestral faith. I’ve traveled throughout Iceland, Denmark, Norway and eventually returned to my family’s ancestral home of Sweden – immersing myself in the culture, faith, folklore and mythologies of our own Middle Earth. Were it not for reading ‘The Hobbit’ nearly 35 years ago – my life might have progressed along a different path.
There is a great deal of resource material available for Tolkien enthusiasts in the cultural histories and literature of the Norse, Saxon and Celtic peoples. If anyone is interested in inspiring reading lists – please feel free to inquire.
For anyone interested in my photographic portrayals of my travels – you are likewise invited. My writings are always evolving into semblances of the Sagas – but I’ve yet to submit decades worth of inspired chronicling for publication. A writer’s worse critic is often him/herself. I aspire to someday share the adventures with others like yourselves.
I suspect that the following two films will impressively reflect Thorin’s valiant heroism as well as his subsequent humility for suffering the tragedies of further wars and the loss of his family. I am confident that more persons will recognize the hero in Thorin, as they did in Boromir … and know that the ‘Kings of Old’ still live in us all.
Best wishes to you all for a healthy and enjoyable holiday season.
Michael Messina … Grim Helbeard to my Viking reenactment brethren venturing on their own quests throughout Middle Earth.
Susan Messer Chan said:
I can relate with you, Michael, on a writer being his own worse critic. I have written my entire life, but am always reticent to share with others-I’m sure that it is nothing more than terrible dross!
The mention of Boromir is a common theme that keeps showing itself. I’m working on an essay comparing and contrasing him with Thorin right now. The Dwarf King is superior in my mind-as I believe he was in Tokien’s as well. They share many characteristics, but also differ in a few very key ways.
I am very much looking forward to seeing how PJ and RA handle Thorin in the next two films. I know that many readers are turned off by Thorin after the desolation of Smaug. I believe that this is a result of not understanding the warrior king ethic and Tolkien’s message about honor codes being followed. The Bard handles the situation with Thorin in the worst possible way. As a proud Dwarven king, Thorin responds as he should-with arrogant dismissal of such impetuous demands. He does not refuse to share any of the spoils with the people of Lake Town. He asserts his authority as rightful heir over Erebor and says that The Bard will have to wait for the appropriate time. I don’t find that to be unreasonable at all.
Grim Helbeard said:
Susan,
I am likewise curious to know what happened to Thrain – being portrayed as the model king and warrior of Durin’s lineage. Despite the murder of his father and the threat of being overwhelmed by the Moria orcs – I would have expected him to rally the Dwarves with the same vengeful fury as Thorin did.
If he has inherited one of the Dwarven rings of power – has it corrupted him to despair so much that he forsakes his people and exiles himself to madness. I can’t imagine a more tragic fate for a Dwarven king – by comparison, his father Thror dies as most Dwarfs ( and Norse warriors ) would aspire to reach the ancestral halls of their Gods.
I was most impressed seeing a younger Balin and Dwalin – and hope to see more flashbacks of the elder days. I could have walked away from the film satisfied having only experienced Smaug’s invasion of Erebor, and the subsequent assault on Moria.
Make that trip to Iceland … it will change you.
Take the time to travel the coastal ‘Ring Road’ around the entirety of the country.
From the northern coastline, you can ride similar Icelandic horses ( Thorin and Company’s mounts ) into the heart of Iceland’s glaciers. My first experience witnessing the northern lights was from a volcanic caldera in Myvatin. You just can’t rival the experiences of Iceland’s environmental diversity.
Norway’s fjords were equally inspiring. A bottle of mead and a writing journal were never such fulfilling company. ‘Writers’ … we’re just eccentrics no matter where we travel.
Hope you had an enjoyable holiday … seeing ‘The Hobbit’ again.
Best Wishes
Michael
D.J. said:
Michael, I think the Thrain storyline suffered from rewrites. I have no way of knowing what they were originally going to do with Azog and Bolg, but it was not this, and that plus the three film change, probably caused Thrain to get bumped somewhere else. Thrain had a part in the teaser trailer last year, as the guy trying to attack Gandalf at Dol Guldur. We don’t yet know what time period that happened in.
I felt they rushed past the Thrain issue by way of narration, when really we should have actually seen something happen to him. Hopefully it will be more fulfilling in the next film.
D.J. said:
Susan, the reaction of Tolkien’s Thorin to the challenge/proposition of Bard is similar to the film Thorin’s reaction to Azog’s challenge. It may seem like pride and greed to insist Bard must submit to his terms or they will have no deal, but really it is the same thing that drives him into battle at the end of the book, or as the case in this film, into an unbalanced fight that he is not likely to win.
I found his actions with Bard to be those appropriate to a real king.
Susan Messer Chan said:
Exactly!! I always get a bit angry with people that insist that Thorin was a villain for not sharing the wealth right away with The Bard. First of all, Thorin is the King Under the Mountain! You don’t just march in there and DEMAND a share of the spoils. There is a code that must be observed. This is what Thorin states. If you read what is said in The Hobbit, Thorin doesn’t refuse to share with the people of Laketown-he simply states that they be patient and wait for protocol to be followed. Secondly, who is The Bard hanging out with?! Thranduil!! The douche that turned his back on Thorin’s people in their time of need and the one that captured them in Mirkwood! I wouldn’t trust the dude either!!! LOL
grimhelbeard said:
I agree with you … but ‘Wow’! – Douche – I feel sorry for anyone who dresses as Thranduill at a Tolkien convention and crosses your path.
I would certainly give that ‘pretty-boy’ elven prince a strong backhanded lesson in humility … but I undoubtedly lean towards a Viking’s approach to diplomacy.
Grim
susanmesser7 said:
Lord! Who would be stupid enough to dress as Thranduil?! LOL It’s hard to believe that he spawned an awesome dude like Legolas!
mmgilchrist said:
Yes, I agree with you re: Bard. There is a question of honour codes, as you say. Also, in practical terms, the Dwarves are only just moving back in. How much is a refit of Erebor, rehoming people & c going to cost the treasury? Reckoning what other communities were owed would need time to calculate.
There’s also another story regarding dragon treasure and Dwarves in the Appendices of LotR which would suggest caution is needed in dealing with Men. It was brought to my attention because someone referenced it in fic (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3558729/1/Property-Rights):
“Of Frumgar’s son, Fram, they tell that he slew Scatha, the great dragon of Ered Mithrin, and the land had peace from the long-worms afterwards. Thus Fram won great wealth, but was at feud with the Dwarves, who claimed the hoard of Scatha. Fram would not yield them a penny and sent to them instead the teeth of Scatha made into a necklace, saying ‘Jewels such as these you will not match in your treasuries for they are hard to come by.” Some say that the Dwarves slew Fram for this insult.
The Return of the King, Appendix A, “The House of Eorl”
I also think Bilbo was completely out of order to nick the Arkenstone and give it to Bard. It wasn’t his to give.
Anjy Roemelt said:
… as he fully knew. So, a closer look into the morals of The Hobbit would be interesting, to say the least ;-)
Melian said:
Susan, with Thorins causes on the gates of Erebor I totally agree. I had a discussion in a German Tolkien forum….for WEEKS!…about Thorins charcter and especially THAT scene…all of them seem to be Tolkien scholars, reading all of his work…but most of them also turned against Thorin because of his decision, they didn`t understand it. For me, personally, this decision was always understandable as I understood Thorin as the proud king he is. The problem was not to share his treasure with Bard, but the WAY they wanted to force him. …with an army in weapons…..speaking of foes and war at the second line of the speech of Bard! This to refuse is no greed it is pride and honour and the will not to bow to another ones will. I´m no man, no warrior, nor dwarvish king, but my own decision in that case would probably have been the same one..
Grim Helbeard said:
DJ
I’m sure that you also noticed the Witch King’s tomb in the trailers – either Thrain’s confrontation with Gandalf, and the tomb investigation are going to be featured as flashbacks in the following films – or they are scenes reserved for the extended versions. Either way … I agree that Thrain didn’t receive the depth of character development that I would have liked to see.
On another note … Radagast intercepts Gandalf prior to Rivendell – Rhosgobel is opposite the Misty Mountains – some distance to travel on a hare driven sleigh. I doubt that most persons would care … but any ideas on a route he could have traveled to reach Thorin’s location. I was pleased to see Radagast and Rhosgobel play such an integral part of the film. I hope to see more of him, and possibly an interaction with Beorn.
I’ve heard suspicions that Radagast may end up a victim of Saruman’s scheme to ally himself with Sauron – I’d prefer to see Radagast return to his secluded life without conflict … but his demise may prove a pivotal turning to the ‘Dark Side’ for Saruman.
I agree that Thorin should not have immediately relinquished Erebor’s wealth to either the men of Dale, or the woodland elves … particularly not to the Thranduil after his blatant betrayal. However … I’ve no idea how Thorin’s reaction will be portrayed. I can’t envision Thorin sacrificing his family and friends, in a suicidal defence of Erebor’s wealth, after all they’ve sacrificed and struggled for him. There is likely going to be a blatant antagonistic affront to Thorin’s honor – and I’m suspecting that insult will come from the elves. “Never trust an elf”
Whatever transpires … I’ve been impressed by the first film enough that I trust the following two will be even more impressive. I can’t wait to see Dain and the Dwarves of the Iron Hills rally to fight in the ‘Battle of Five Armies’
DJ – thanks for maintaining such a great Dwarf enthusiast site. Check out Games Workshop’s new and future releases of scale modeling for ‘The Hobbit’. I’ve been an avid scale modeler for thirty years – with fifteen years worth of Warhammer Dwarfs displayed in cased dioramas to compliment my library. I’m sure there are other fans of your site that would appreciate the link either to Games Workshop direct, or to Amazon’s listings once the new kits are made available.
Michael
D.J. said:
I agree that Radagast popping over the Mistys is odd, but then everyone found it strange how Orcs and wargs were on the western side too. I suppose he could have taken the same path that Thorin and Co. took, but should have been noticed in Rivendell. And I don’t know why so many people seem convinced Radagast is going to die in these films either.
With the Arkenstone’s heightened power (not really powerful that we know of, but somehow important enough that Thror was able to get the elves to pay homage to him just because he had it) I suspect that Thorin will have even more cause to go to war over it.
Will be interesting to see what they make of Dain. Right now they have undermined his standing horribly by changing the Azanulbizar backstory, and mentioning that the Iron Hills dwarves would not help in Thorin’s quest. Will he seem as honorable as he was in the books after that?
Thanks for mentioning the GW Hobbit sets. You are welcome to share any reviews or opinions you might have of those sets or pieces, and I can make a page about it with links to GW. No pressure to do so, just thought I would ask someone who must be an expert on it by now :)
fedoralady said:
My husband, the non-Tolkien fan, was quite concerned over Radagast’s fate. I told him I guess we’d find out. I think he’s definitely hoping the eccentric little wizard survives. ;)
grimhelbeard said:
I can’t guess at what power the Arkenstone may possess – other than it’s rarity, and value. Considering the sentimental significance of the Arkenstone to Thorin’s family – I agree that the elves withholding it as a negotiation advantage would be a sufficient affront for the Dwarves to wage war. But then … the book portrays Thorin preparing to defend Erebor against the elves and men before Bilbo delivers the Arkenstone to Thranduil.
The Radagast rumor is just that – fan speculation. Radagast, like Beorn and the Dwarves don’t play apparent roles in ‘The Lord of the Rings’ – so persons are asking what happened … or where could he be when the fate of Middle Earth is threatened by Sauron. No doubt – Radagast survives to defend a healing Greenwood forest from Sauron’s re-conquest of Mirkwood. It’s all up to ‘Peter Jackson and Company’ at this point. Personally, I’m backing up Radagast to displace the Necromancer … and to give Saruman a deserved humbling.
Dain may well be defending the Iron Hills from orc infestation, and isn’t willing to sacrifice his people to antagonize Smaug after he decimated Erebor’s defences in a day. That’s not to say that he hasn’t offered Thorin and his family the hospitality of his home – but rather – he is of the same mind as Balin … that the lives of his people could never be outweighed by all the gold in Erebor. He does rally his kingdom to ‘defend’ Thorin and his companions from the alliance of men and elves – so I don’t believe that Dain’s honor or nobility are compromised.
Grim
grimhelbeard said:
DJ
I’ll contact you when I begin my next modeling project – though they can amount to months of invested effort to complete. I need to record current photos of my displays, and will email them to you when they are thoroughly catalogued.
If only for your own reference, and interest in the Dwarves outside of Middle Earth – I would highly recommend the website ‘Bugman’s Brewery’. It is a compilation of detailed scale modeling, and of exceptional artwork pertaining to the Warhammer Dwarves. If you are impressed by Weta’s interpretation of the Dwarves in the film – you’ll be interested to review source books, novels, role play gaming, and modeling that Weta undoubtedly referred to when designing their own perception of the Dwarves.
I’ll certainly review the Games Workshop kits for you as they are released – but finished projects are the result of skill, effort and ‘commitment’ – like any artistic medium. Overall, the character models are 25mm tall, and cast from metal – some kit details are resin cast – and the details are intricate. Cost is high by comparison to ‘display ready’ collectibles – but there is the advantage of personalizing your Dwarven Throng – and creating an entire battlefield display that can be viewed in a cabinet / casement.
For anyone enthusiastic about the Dwarves … having excessive available time and patience … this is the path to repressing any social life you might have had. I did mention that it’s a hobby for the ‘Committed’.
Grim
Anjy Roemelt said:
After seeing the film The Hobbit for the first time – a fortnight ago – I said to my daughter and fellow-Tolkienite “Thorin does look a bit like Aragorn, but Aragorn was too perfect. He has just one scene of doubt – at Rivendell when he moans the blood of Isildur running in his veins, a real side-splitter in German – Thorin, he can be a pain in the back and still be a hero.
But I doubt I would have spared so much thought on Thorin before inspite of breathing Tolkien for three decades now. IN the book he doesn’t really come over as a hero at all. A king, yes, at Esgaroth and later in the battle of the Five Armies, but throughout the book Tolkien makes a point of how the dwarves aren’t heroes at all, they are traders, business people, and thus maybe much more akin to the readers than those would care to. The film has added this norse element. The book-dwarves were much closer to garden-gnomes, with their brilliantly colored hoods and not bearing any weapons save some hunting knives. Still, even the book provides opportunity to identify with them and find a heroic streak. be it Kili and Fili shielding their royal uncle in battle and dying for him, or Thorin’s last talk to Bilbo. Together with Bilbo, clearly the main character and the only true hero in the book, they show us that everyone of us CAN be a hero, they are made, not born. In your face. Mr. Strider (oops, sorry, Aragorn, I really love you and I don’t know if the fact you resemble Jesus more than any other person in books and films adds to or takes from the love :-) ).
mmgilchrist said:
The LotR Appendices and the Unfinished Tales flesh out Thorin’s story rather more fully and are important sources for the film. The Hobbit children’s book version is almost like a ‘rough draft’, not integrated into the War of the Ring cycle.
grimhelbeard said:
Anjy,
Garden Gnomes? … O.K. maybe there is a resemblance … to quote Aragorn – “It’s the beards”.
F.Y.I. – all my Garden Gnomes are equipped with warhammers and axes … to protect the property from goblins.
Grim
Anjy Roemelt said:
Grim, which country are you from? I thought this attitude was strictly limited to our neck of the woods ;-). BTw – all the garden-gnomes my grandparents ever had, had red hoods, so Tolkien’s dwarves do make a difference. ImhO we just have to bear in mind that The Hobbit was meant as a children’s story – and it is – while the film is something much more, at least for me. I can take my inner child to that movie and she enjoys it alongside with the seemingly adult self :-)
grimhelbeard said:
Anjy
Fortunately for persons like ourselves … the Dwarves – and Gnomes – encourage our ‘Inner Child’ from degenerating into full fledged adults.
I’d rather end up a Troll … they have fewer social expectations.
Grim
Anjy Roemelt said:
… but worse food, obviously ;-). I just did a re-reading of the Unfinished Tales and the Thorin depicted there much more resembles the Armitage-version we are currently enjoying than the strictly-book Thorin. I’m sure Tolkien wrote the several scripts about Erebor after he finished The Lord of the Rings and knew more about how the events in both books were connected.
grimhelbeard said:
Anjy
I also re-read ‘The Quest of Erebor’ before viewing the film … for the first time, and agree that Thorin is portrayed as the model for Dwarves in current series such as Warhammer and Warcraft. Growing up with the Scandinavian Edda – I always associated the Dwarves and Elves with the other Fey folk of legends – rather than the fairy-tale interpretations.
Personally, I’d be enthused to see a Brian Froud series on the Dwarves and Elves – similar to his Goblins, Trolls and Faerie series. The further from a Disney-esque perspective … the better. Humanizing the Fey Folk is just criminal.
… and you are right about Troll food.
… but at least no self-respecting Troll would eat McDonalds. Goblins might.
Grim
Anjy Roemelt said:
Grim, I now can see how fortunate I am to have grown up in a disney-free zone. Aside from the garden-gnomes in my grannie’s flowerbed Tolkien’s dwarves were the first I came upon, but for the first 20 years of Tolkienism I found them less interesting than the elves (maybe because it was easier to do cheat-slips in tengwar). I recognized the Norse Spirit, though, from the other great literary influence in my life, Rosemary Sutcliff. Did you read her Beowulf? Anyone who has read “The Shieldring” and “Lantern bearers” half a dozen times would feel at home with Thorin and company. :-)
Anjy
mmgilchrist said:
I grew up on Sutcliff, as well as Tolkien and the sagas! Great stuff!
grimhelbeard said:
Anjy,
Thanks for the reading suggestions – I’ll definitely look into them. I’m currently reading Christopher Webster’s ‘Hrothgar’ – a prehistory to the events of Beowulf, and written from a strong Icelandic Saga influence.
Robert Low’s ‘Oathsworn’ series is the most authentic Norse historic fiction that I’ve enjoyed. It can be excessively graphic at times – but then the Dark Ages was plagued by constant struggle, conflict and tragedy. Bernard Cornwell’s ‘Saxon Chronicles’ is comparable for it’s historic accuracy and character development.
Have a safe and healthy New Year. Just twelve more months till ‘Thorin and Company’ return.
Grim
Susan Messer Chan said:
Did anyone see the recent interview for the one ring where Phillipa Boyen states that the next film is going to delve much more deeply into Thrain’s backstory? Good news, I think!
grimhelbeard said:
I suspect that the preview scenes of Gandalf defending himself from a crazed Thrain will require flashbacks to his self-exile and madness.
I’m still suspicious that one of the seven Dwarven rings is responsible for Thrain’s despair. The Dwarves resolve is too strong for their noblest leader to abandon his remaining family and peoples – even after witnessing his father’s beheading.
Maybe it’s just excessive speculation – but the rings are corruptive influences, and attracters of Morgoth’s minions. Could Smaug have been drawn to one of the rings in Erebor – in addition to it’s wealth of gold, mithril … and a large supply of barbequed Dwarves.
Sorry.
I am likewise exited to see more of Thrain’s story. I trust that he’ll be portrayed with the same integrity as we’ve seen in each of the other Dwarves.
Grim
Susan Messer Chan said:
It is written that Thror had the first forged (by elven smiths and not Sauron) of the seven dwarfen rings of power in his possession and that he passed it onto Thrain before his death. This led Thrain to travel back to Erebor (for he was consumed with a desire for all its gold), where he was captured, tortured, and had the ring taken from him by Sauron’s forces. Before his death (and in a state of insanity), he meets one last time with Gandalf. I am guessing this is what the preview scenes show.
Grim Helbeard said:
Susan,
I am inclined to begin referring to you as ‘The Oracle’ of Middle Earth.
Michael
susanmesser7 said:
LOL. Just a total geek ;)
Grim Helbeard said:
Susan,
That’s what makes you awesome.
Michael
swordwhale said:
Just awesome!
susanmesser7 said:
Thanks-I’m quite in my element at events such as DragonCon. In addition to being a Tolkien geek I’m also a SciFi & Game of Thrones geek :)
Grim Helbeard said:
I’m looking forward to the ‘Game of Thrones’ season two release on disc in February.
From what little I’ve seen in coming attractions and ‘behind the scenes’ specials – the majority of action taking place north of the wall is in Iceland.
Foremost, I’m anxious to see that little punk Joffrey … get beaten to within an inch of his life. Death would be a mercy that he hasn’t earned.
A warhammer would work nicely on that smug expression of his.
He did execute Boromir … and he’s a whining little shit. Inexcusable.
Grim
susanmesser7 said:
I watched the second season on HBO. It was great-despite the fact that my favorite character is killed off at the end of season one (Khal Drogo). I read the first book when it came out and was so angry at the end when Drogo died that I never read the rest of them. I am going to continue on with the show though :)
Grim Helbeard said:
I agree that the loss of Drogo was disappointing – but then I would never have anticipated that Ned Stark would have been executed.
I am waiting to view the entirety of the new season on disc … as a film saga rather than in broken episodes.
I never read the novels either. I doubt that I’ll ever catch up with my evolving library.
I’m currently beginning ‘Harald Hardrada – The Last Viking’ by Michael Burr, to be followed by ‘Harald Hardrada – The Warrior Way’ – a historic biography of the last ‘true’ pagan king of Norway.
I’ll email my review of season two after I’ve finished and reflected on it.
Grim
Grim Helbeard said:
Susan,
One more reading suggestion ‘Offa – Rise of the Englisc Warrior’ also available through Amazon.
I enjoyed elements of ‘Hrothgar’ – and am interested in your opinion when you finish.
Grim
Anjy Roemelt said:
I am very fond of saying that book-
Thorin is very different from film-Thorin,
but in re-reading the book I finally
encountered film-Thorin there, too. On
page 188 in my 1979-edition it says:
“Thorin son of Thrain son of Thror King under the Mountain!” said the dwarf in a
loud voice, and he looked it, in spite of
his torn clothes and draggled hood. The
gold gleamed on his neck and waist; his
eyes were dark and deep. :-)
Anonimous1 said:
True…I always saw Thorin as an tipical nobleman,arrogant and impulsive,but also brave,as he was raised to defend his lands,and quite inspiring.Although,quoting a post back there,”heros aren’t born,they’re made”,think of Bilbo.The closest of nobility the man had was a distant descent from Bandobras “Bulroarer” Took,an hobbit capitain who defeated a goblin host invading the Northfarthing and slew their king himself (and also invented golf,long story:D),and the guy is the closest in the book from an indolent,cowadly lump,and yet he came to be a hero.
Anjy Roemelt said:
Interesting that you hint at nobility. In history nobility have been trained for generations to serve. King and country and their people, while the servants, who may not have been trained to do that in theory but had the practice all around, thoroughly relied on their lords and ladies to serve them, if need be, or don’t. Some of them, surely, didn’t match expectations, but many did. In our days, to serve is some kind of four-letter-word in disguise. Nobody wants to serve (like good old Lucifer, he must be having a field-day down there in that hell of his) and nobility is scarce among noblemen as much as among lesser folk. Does this tell us something, I wonder? Is there something in Thorin (or other fictious characters) we need in blasted old reality?
Anonimous1 said:
Sorry dude didnt meant to get ofensive after all i myself descend from spanish and german nobility all i was saying is that Thorin was quite the tipical nobleman-morals aside,he was quite the leader and the figther,but had that annoying tendence to bullheadness