I’ve no background in Norse mythology (aside from a brief reading of the dwarf names), so this suggestion by Susan Messer Chan of possible motivations for the screen version of Thorin is very helpful.
I’m still not sure how the revised version of the Thror>Thrain>Thorin vs. Azog>Bolg vendetta is going to resolve itself, but at the moment, I’m bemoaning the missing details on Thrain. Thrain was quite a force to be reckoned with in the Appendices, unwilling to stop at the Battle of Azanulbizar when injured, even after his son Frerin dies, and after he’s lost half his people. In many ways he is the ultimate dwarf, and really fulfills the role of the Norse warrior as described in Susan’s post. He takes the fight to the orcs for seven years straight until he gets his revenge. But like his son became later, he is quite stiff-necked, and would have pushed on to take Moria (Balrog or no Balrog) if there had been anyone left who would follow him. Wiser and wearier, Dain deterred him from taking action that day, but Thrain’s spirit of desire and determination (amplified by having a Ring of Power no doubt) would not die, and drove him to his fate with the Necromancer.
I think that understanding Thorin’s relatives is important in understanding him, and I do hope they give us a more insightful look at Thrain in the next film.
I recently returned from seeing “The Hobbit” for the third time. Being a Tolkien scholar, there is obviously no shortage of themes which this film delves into which would fail to inspire me. This evening, however, I happened upon one quite by chance. As my daughter, husband, and I were making our way out of the auditorium, I heard a man speaking with his friends. He seemed to be in rather a muddled state. He asked the lady to his right why in the world would that dwarf leader have leapt off of the tree and rushed straight into a nest of bloodthirsty orcs and wargs all alone? It seemed suicidal and thoroughly dim-witted. All those in his group agreed.
Naturally, I couldn’t let this simply pass. It dawned on me that so many people out there seeing “The Hobbit” for the first time have no background in Norse mythology. Although the majority…
View original 461 more words
I agree with you about Thrain. There is so much to that backstory and it would greatly enhance the viewer’s understanding of where Thorin is coming from. Unfortunately, many vital pieces of the story had to be left out. For my part, I would welcome extended versions of these films. Perhaps, PJ will go that route in the end and fill in some of the inevitable gaps.
I’m often surprised that many persons interested in Tolkien’s fiction aren’t aware of the Norse, Saxon and Celtic influences.
Surprisingly, much of Middle Earth’s characters and dramas originated from the Norse Edda. Originally a poetic compilation of Norse faith and legends – The Poetic Edda of Iceland was translated into a more comprehensive prose version for those of us who prefer a more comprehensive storyline.
The Dwarves in particular are strongly influenced by the Vikings – though in many respects by the Scottish clans also.
Those familiar with the fictional series Warhammer, by Black Library publications – are already familiar with an expansive Dwarf civilization from the resource book ‘Grudgelore’ and also the novel compendium ‘Dwarfs’. A recent release ‘The Great Betrayal’ – is the first book of a trilogy depicting the ‘War of Vengeance’ between the Dwarves and Elves prior to the expansion of humanity in the old world.
For those persons interested in Tolkien’s historical influences of Middle Earth’s races – I would strongly suggest ‘The Anglo Saxon Chronicles’ (Numenor / Gondor) – ‘The Prose Edda’ and ‘Sigurd the Dragonslayer’ (Rohan / Dwarves) and an entertaining illustrated book of Celtic folklore by Brian Froud and Alan Lee, simply called ‘Faires’ (Elves).
These suggestions are only primers for those interested in further appreciating Middle Earth’s characters, and their origins. I do hope that others develop as strong an interest in our own histories as I have because of Tolkien’s influences.
Have a safe and healthy holiday season.
Thank you Grim for sharing all of these resources!
what’s surprising about Tolkien being influenced by the Edda? He wanted to create a myth for England. The celts have theirs, but there’s often a slight anti-english note to them. The saxon myths were rooted more or less in the lands they came from. England – and Tolkien was very much English, not Welsh or Scottish – does not have a myth of her own being mixed up of celtic, norman, saxon, british, scottish and whatnot elements. Even the language is. For almost every “English” word in English you have a synonym of norman/french origin. And Tolkien started with language. Language is the amniotic fluid to myth. So, we have a lot of “Englishness” in the Hobbit, and celtic and norse influences blended like a superb English breakfast tea. BTW – the norse elements far exceed the celtic ones, I think Tolkien actually prefered the former.
The celts have theirs, but there’s often a slight anti-english note to them.
Only in the early Arthurian material, which was then embraced by English and Norman-French (via their Breton contingent).
I find Tolkien’s attitude towards Celtic-language material (and it is only a language distinction: there is strong population continuity in the UK, just an overlay of cultural changes) very odd. He affects to disdain it in many respects, but then utilises it to a fair degree. I’m also not sure how far he was aware of things like West Highland mediæval culture – Gaelic-speaking but heavily influenced by Norse mores.
This is a bit of a repost of what I put up on Susan’s excellent blog. I had less than no surprise that Thorin made a desperate stand against Azog. I would have expected no less of him. Whether it was a determination to die gloriously in battle or to try to distract the Orcs from his company is of little consequence. I doubt that even Thorin himself could tell you what he was thinking as he roared and charged. Some actions are purely visceral. I expected no less that his warriors joined him, determined to inflict as much harm as they could before their end. When all odds are against you and your death is near make such an end that even your enemies will remember. And Azog will remember. His anger burned already but it has been fanned to being white hot. Let us hope that Thorin can use that anger against him when next they meet in battle.
I was saddened that Thorin’s Oakenshield slipped away from him when the eagle picked him up. I’m hoping that it is somehow retrieved, but perhaps it represents a part of his past that he no longer needs. One must relinquish the old to embrace and to face the new. He’s learning to bend if nothing else. The oak was able to allow himself to admit that he was wrong about the Hobbit. That took courage and showed that his leadership skills are being honed.
The moment I saw Thorin all the Norse mythology I’ve read came rushing back. These are not small beings, they are powerfully muscled fearless warriors who swing forge hammer or sharp axe with equal fervor and skill. I know that Richard Armitage said he played Thorin like a Viking or words to that effect. Dwarves are shorter in height but tremendously powerful and certainly not someone to take lightly in battle. Certainly no Orc going up against Dwalin with his Mohawk and beserker attitude would think him “small.” I am hoping for a glorious end for Thorin so that he is ready for the Valkyrie when they come to take him to Valhalla to dwell with his honored ancestors.
“Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!” — “Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!”
You certainly fire up the mental forges with your comment Jane!
Absolutely. He did exactly what I would expect of him. I know these people. I think I’m just an excessively tall Dwarf…
Further re: your great comment – I’m currently somewhat preoccupied with another small, extremely brave (but rather more fragile) favourite of mine in real-world history. A curator friend is involved in the current research project. The raw horror of close-quarters combat with edged weapons is written on the bones. The courage these men must have had – to fight in this way, to risk the appalling injuries – is extraordinary.
I have read a commentary by the late Rosemary Sutcliff, author of many novels mostly about the romans in Britain, saying that death and pain did not appear as frightening to people of former times than to us nowadays. I wonder – if this is true – what the reasons are. Is pain become so alien and abnormal to our satiesfied world we think we don’t have to deal with it?
To some extent (although, frankly, I think it is a good thing that it is being made increasingly alien to us. Rosemary Sutcliff herself was crippled with a form of rheumatoid arthritis from childhood, so that’s where she’s coming from (and is why she made so many of her heroes have to deal with disability – lameness, loss of a limb, & c.)
But what these men faced in battle was an extreme, that needed extraordinary courage, and that was why they were sung of and became the stuff of legend.
Have you read “The Shining Company”? by Sutcliff? She has some battle scenes described there which are evidently rated PG. I remember an interview with her in which she was asked if she expected to be reborn as a soldier (or else if she believed she was a roman soldier reborn; sie DID believe in reincarnation) and she said she had had enough soldiering in this life. So, true, she knkew what she was talking about when it comes to pain.
Have you read “The Shining Company”?
Yes, it’s one of my favourites of hers, based on a poem I love (Aneirin’s Y Gododdin). I grew up on her novels, as did quite a lot of my generation here in the UK. The youngsters are getting into them now, after the film of The Eagle of the Ninth (though I loved the 1977-ish BBC serialisation).
Sutcliff is outstanding in many ways. I have loved her books for decades. I have on my shelves , I believe, everything by her translated into German and some only available in English. Sutcliff is the only author I have come across whose books actually gain through translation. Normally, I prefer the original and some translations (Harry Potter!) are abysmally bad, but it’S different with Sutcliff. I believe it has to do with the fact she had to spend so much time just looking. When she grew up she did miniature-painting for a living and her books are often written just like that. She is painting scenes rather than telling them. Because she had to spend so much time just sitting where she was put (you know she couldn’t read till the age of 9, if I remember right) her “text-paintings” are rather stationary, based on the substantive rather than the verb. Now, English is a language deriving from the verb while in German the nouns and adajectives are much more prominent. I compared several fo her books that way and always found that the translation to German made the scenes gain something, even when the translator got some things totally wrong. In “DAwn Wind”, for example, he stubbornly translated “corn” with “Mais” (cobcorn) which didn’t exist in 6th century Britain. I checked with Sutcliff’s nephew Anthony Lawton (http://rosemarysutcliff.com/) and he confirmed that she really meant “grain” and chose the old-english form “corn” for that. Her books will never stop to fascinate me. I’m very happy to find another fan here :-).
Very well said. The Viking works, Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, and Beowulf were my childhood reading sources :) I’ve been drawn to Tolkien and these literary traditions almost since birth. I definitely believe that a foundation in the histories of these cultures makes the film experience that much more rewarding.
Susan,
In responding to your prior article – I mentioned my travels to Iceland. If you are not already familiar with the film – ‘Beowulf and Grendel’ was an independent production that was shot entirely in Iceland, and features Gerard Butler (Beowulf) and Stellan Skarsgaard (Hrothgar). It is my favorite film interpretation of the legend.
I was fortunate to visit the locations of each scene in the film, and considered traveling throughout Iceland as my most authentic Viking era experience. Words are insufficient to describe the majestic beauty of such a primal environment. My most impressive photography to date resulted from immersing myself in the land, it’s culture and history.
Because you mentioned ‘Beowulf’ – likewise, one of the most inspiring literary influences on my life – I wanted to suggest a new title that was self published by Christopher Webster. ‘Hrothgar’ is written as a Beowulf background novel which focusses on Hrothgar’s history, as well as other legendary heroes and events of his time. I strongly recommend the book – it is currently available through Amazon.
Michael
Thanks Michael! I have seen the Gerard Butler version of’ Beowulf.’ I have not read Webster’s ‘Hrothgar’ yet. I’m putting that on the list of things to read over the next few months!
One of my ‘must do’ things to accomplish in life is a trip to Iceland. I have wanted to go there all my life. I think it will feel like a sort of homecoming for me-just like each time that I set foot on English soil.
Tolkien was a professor of Anglo-Saxon studies at Oxford University. He was always my literary hero growing up. I visited Pembroke College in my early twenties and was overwhelmed to be standing on the very spot where he had ruminated.
Yes! That’s a great film! In fact, my mental image of Dís is very much grounded in the portrayal of Queen Wealhþeow in that version (an Icelandic actress, as I recall).
Susan,
It sounds like your trip to Pembroke was inspiring and fulfilling. I suspect that one day – young enthusiasts will make pilgrimages to visit where you teach, and began your own writing. Keep doing what you have a passion for, and I’m sure that I’ll end up ordering a copy of your first publication.
Michael
While I agree with your Norse warrior interpretation – it’s a valid point to make – I saw the reason for Thorin’s decision differently.
His entire crew is hanging on that tree – with no escape chance because the Orcs block the only way out. He once got the Orcs to retreat by injuring Azog severely enough that he needed to quit the field. And I thought that when he charged at Azog he was trying to do the same – kill him or injure him bad enough to force him off the field – sending his Orcs retreating or fleeing. Had he accomplished that quick enough, Thorin would have stood a chance of saving most – maybe even all – of his warriors from the tree.
He was not simply waiting for Gandalf to come up with a solution. He was trying the only thing left to him to save his men. It was a desperate and heroic thing to do and that he failed does not dimish his courage.
That was my take on it.
You’re very kind, Michael! :) I am actually working on a screenplay and a novel at the present time. I’ve always suffered from a bit of self doubt so, comments like yours help me tremendously!
Susan,
My sister-in-law has been encouraging me to publish for years. In addition to teaching writing as a university professor – she has been published as a ghost writer previously, but is revising a new novel under her own name.
Personally, after decades of writing poetic verse, short stories and enough content to complete a series of novels – I’m not prepared to submit the material for editing.
I may be my harshest critic – but I’m not prepared to allow a corporate beaurocrat to pick apart my passions for the benefit of whatever income they could generate.
I periodically share select drafts with other writers, or artists who can appreciate the effort and sacrifice to remain sincere to your craft. I suspect that my nephews will publish my works after I’ve travelled to the halls of my ancestors.
That’s not to say that I don’t encourage others to pursue sharing their accomplishments with the world. I believe that you have the talent, and are personable and passionate in your enthusiasm to share that talent as a teacher.
I envy your professional integrity more that any ‘Best Seller’ that is written for mass market entertainment. Stay true to what ‘You’ want to write, and how ‘You’ want to express yourself … and others will recognize your potential as well.
I look forward to seeing your name amongst the credits of Peter Jackson’s next trilogy … ‘The Silmarillion’.
Michael
Great points, Valandhir!. One of the things that I love the most about literature is that you can interpret it in many ways. I could argue just as eloquently that Thorin had done a foolish thing by stepping down from that tree. Of course I would NEVER do such a thing ;)
Well, I’ll do it then, just for the love of argument ;-).
Thorin`s behaviour clearly represents a psychological pattern often but not exclusively found in males. His business with Azog wasn’t finished that day of the battle and he knows it subconsciously. The way he insists on Azog having been killed when Balin retells Azanulbizar and later in the encounter with the goblin king shows how he is trying to talk himself into it: he DID kill Azog that day, he DID what was his duty – revenge his grandfather and father – or didn’t he? This small, nagging doubt can be a heavy burden if borne for years especially for a male who carries the responsibility for not only a family but a whole people. It is absolutely necessary that he is 100% responsible – read alternatively: 100% right – for his people rely on him. So, the moment Thorin has to face Azog alive and kicking he also has to face the humiliating fact that he has been wrong all these years. he did NOT kill Azog, did NOT do what was expected of him and he is NOT the 100% reliable leader he wanted and had to be. This is more than a high-strung and self-respecting male is able to bear, more often than not. It has to be solved, right now, immediately. The years of self-illusioning cannot be made undone, the only way to get rid of them is to get rid of either Azog or himself, and the only means to achieve that is the sword. So, Thorin rushes forward to meet Azog, his past and his destiny not out of any noble norse spirit or care for his companions but purely out of a feeling of unbearable humiliation. Life cannot have wronged him that way. He is right, he is always right and he is going to put this right once and for all.
The fact that he really does not make a very splendid figure in this encounter, the way Azog smiles and opens his arms towards him almost like a lover, underline this interpretation. Thorin is mocked on top of it all, he is doing just what Azog wants him to do, loves him to do. “Come to me, little dwarf, I have been waiting, oh, soooo long. Isn’t it beautiful how you dance to MY tune. ” And then he leaves the business of actually finishing Thorin off first to his she-warg and then to a nameless orc. “Bring me the head of the dwarf!” It’s the nightmare of any y-chromsome swiggling around, to be diminished like this. Death is to be preferred anytime, no matter the cost, even if it be his companion’s lives – not to mention his humiliated, wronged and obviously worthless own. Deep down Thorin has been haunted by the fear he is not good enough a leader, not strong or brave enough to do his duty by his people, all these years and now he sees he has been right all the time: he IS a looser. Period.
Of course, it’s absolutely untypical for a thus humiliated male to get up afterwards and praise the one, small and insignificant and utterly un-warriorish individual who came to his aid. That would be to even admit himself that he, Thorin, wasn’t good enough and thus double the humiliation. In fact, that Thorin acts like that proves that Middle-Earth is what this real world sadly never again will be: a freud-free zone. ;-)
The point you make about this fight with Azog being orc-hestrated (ooh, I went there!) to humiliate Thorin, and Thorin plodding into it like a blinded fool, is in such contrast to the more popular idea that Thorin is fulfilling his role as kingly warrior by accepting the challenge alone. But I tend to agree more with this perspective. As you say, “Thorin rushes forward to meet Azog, his past and his destiny not out of any noble norse spirit or care for his companions but purely out of a feeling of unbearable humiliation. ” I tend to see it as less obsessed with a feeling of past humiliation as with a scalding anger and need to see the killer of his grandfather annihilated, but you are correct in it overshadowing the importance of his own people, who are currently clinging to life on the same tree that he imperiously charges down from. Thorin was never a great tactician in the book, and he is not much better in the film, so the idea of actually helping his brethren up so they can join him in his attack may not have crossed his mind, but you really have to wonder how, as a responsible leader, he could have let Dori and Ori, and half the others dangle there while he goes to try his luck with Azog.
Actually I think that what he does is not so selfish. He once manged to injured Azog badly enough to make the Orcs retreat (Azanulbizar). Now… IF he can injure Azog badly enough for the Orcs to withdraw, he might have just enough time to get his people off that blasted tree. I honestly believe that what Thorin does here he saw as the only chance to somehow protect his people.
Some of them were in the same type of immediate peril as Bilbo was on the cliff face. If he wanted to ensure that there would be people left to protect, he could have helped some of them up, so they could in turn help their fellows while he was busy tempting fate. Instead he nearly steps on Bilbo as he walks by. Forget being a mighty king and representative of dwarven honor. As a team leader it’s just plain irresponsible, if you ask me.
Only there with the Orcs still close he did not have the option to go right for them. Sorry, but we have to agree to disagree on this. Thorin has two problems – one is his people in the tree, the other is the Orcs that make any rescue attempt pretty pointless as they block the only way out and off the tree.
He goes for trying to remove the enemy first, trusting that his people will either hang on or help each other. He knows they are quite capable. And he does not step on Bilbo, he walks closest by the Hobbit, sure but I’d not call that nearly stepping on him.
To me Thorin tries to take out the biggest danger for his people, the Orcs that are still closing in. He does so by tackling their leader (a tactic that worked in the past) and I agree to the original poster here, that there is some echo of Norse Warrior behaviour in this act.
You say he should have tried to help his guys out of the tree… sorry he is in the middle of a combat situation and the enemy is still closing in. If you want to see it that way, you could also say that Thorin knows Azog wants him above all, and as long as Azog is busy with him, his people will have time to get themselves out of the tree and back to solid ground. By going for Azog he is buying them time. As far as I am concerned Thorin does well as a leader in that situation.
I don’t see Ori and Dori shouting desperately for help to indicate that they are safe and sound. But Thorin takes no notice of them at all. Everything around him evaporates except for Azog. Perhaps I can’t blame him for not making the better choice since rational thought has also disappeared. Anger clouds judgement. It is a flaw. But to me that is the way of the character. We wait longer to see the same trait surface in the book, but it is there.
To even try to reach Dori and Ori, Thorin would need time and a back not hounded by Orcs. I agree that anger might have played a role in his decision, but I still think that he believed he could make the Orcs retreat, drive them off so he’d have the time to save the others, or give the others time to help themselves. But I guess that is simply different perspectives on the scene.
True. We can come up with many different interpretations when it is just a few lines of print (like so much of Tolkien), so it is even more variable considering the many factors involved in even one frame of film.
I think it’s more that he thinks it’s a completely hopeless situation for all of them (no-one except Gandalf anticipated the Eagles). So what do you do under those circumstances? You make a good end that your enemies at least will remember, even if your friends are all dead..
My reading of it is:
He thinks they’re all going to die. There is no way out – a cliff behind, wargs and orcs in front, the trees burning.
Do you die clinging to a burning tree, screaming for help that isn’t going to come, or do you die facing the enemy, sword in hand, and try to take some of them with you?
I totally agree with you here. It is also my imagination of that scene…no way out, hardly a chance to reach a victory against Azog, this was not only a question of rage or responsibility nor revenge but also of PRIDE. Better die face to face with this enemy than dying helpless burned or fallen from that cliff or killed by wargs. Pride is very important for Thorin, he shows it in a very extended form, and at this moment his pride rules all other causes, even the responsibility for his followers. A pride not able to give up also in wayless situations, a choice of a honourable death instead dying fightless.
Anjy,
Well … you certainly dove into that argument with ‘Fire and Brimstone’
But … you are right to a degree.
I can’t agree that Thorin is a loser – because I would be admitting the same of myself. I viewed his suicidal attack on Azog, and the Warg hunting party, as a last defiant defense of his companions – vengeance for his grandfather’s murder and father’s madness – and yes … his own honor.
The Norse sense of honor is not defined as many romantics would perceive it.
Yes – it is duty to family, and to a one’s own people – but it’s also an issue of personal pride.
I’m not defending the actions of those who pursue vengeance for their own benefit – but I can sympathize with how painful the pressure must be on Thorin.
Maybe, sacrificing himself for a last attack on Azog was selfish – recognizing the overwhelming odds of survival – but at that point, there was nothing to lose … but how he and his companions envisioned his last moments. Real leaders inspire by leading.
Thorin may often be arrogant, obstinate and vengeful – but he has the weight of responsibility, tragedy and a sense of personal failure to contend with.
His companions follow him for his weaknesses as well as his strengths – recognizing the leader and king who has survived so much pain – yet continues to fight until his last moment.
I would have charged Azog with all the fury of the Thunder God.
Maybe … I’m just as damned as Thorin. Honor is unforgiving.
Grim
P.S. Yours is a valid argument, and I do understand your perspective.
Mine are too ingrained to compromise or change.
But … I still have an open mind to appreciate our differences.
Best wishes.
Grim, I picked up the gauntlet from Susan and tried to argue Thorin’s case from an entirely different perspective, the psychological one. I myself don’t identify with this POV at all, but I take it as a compliment for my argumentative abiities that you considered it a valid argument. ;-)
In reality I believe it’s entirely the wrong way to try and explain a person’s decision from one source only. Neither can Thorin’s action be explained solely from a psychological point nor from the norse inheritance only. In each and every person’s life influences, science deems to be separable, merge, or rather emulsify into something individual in the original sense of the meaning: which can’t be divided. Yes, Thorin is a leader, what we would call an “alpha-animal”, and this brings upon him a latent sense of inferiority. He just has more to loose than others, because the responsibility he bears is so much heavier. But he also is a dwarf-warrior, a descendant of kings and a king-in-waiting. This is not about putting on a golden crown and sending around servants, it’s about being the best, the strongest, and the one who has to survey everything. He is the last to jump down the cleft that leads to Rivendell, he is the one who takes decisions like laying down arms before the trolls, he is the one to weigh the risks and bear everything in mind, because the others rely on him. He knows his duty and he didn’t choose it, it was laid upon him.
Things like pride, honor, sacrifice have turned into some kind of four-letter-words-in-disguise these past fifty years. I grew up with “duty” being one in the full sense of the meaning. My parents instilled their conviction in their children that it was a very bad thing to “just do your duty”. Of course, they had their reasons due to German history, but life has taught me that they were just, plain wrong. To do your duty is a good thing. The second thing they were wrong in was that life and peace are more important than anything else. In my humble experience, if you follow that reasonable and sensible concept you pay with more than gold, you loose a part of your soul. Isn’t it weird that 30 years after Vietnam J.K.Rowling yould write in a book for young adults “there are things worth dying for” and no uproar in pedagogues followed? Because it’s right, there ARE things worth dying for. Our souls haven’t forgotten, though our heads may. It’s just a hard job to pick the right things.
I, myself, am neither male nor leader (apart from being a mother which makes you a leader out of necessity, sometimes), but I am atavistic enough to view Thorin’s behaviour as that of a true male and leader whom to follow is a right and good thing even if he isn’t always right. I’d have rushed out to his defense, too, and I’d have stayed with him at Erebor even when Bilbo left, because if you have once found your king and don’t stand by him, you are, unfortunately, reduced to nothing yourself. I know this is an oldfashioned perspective hardly explainable nowadays and I’d be reluctant to write these same words in a pedagogic forum, but I hope for some lenience here.
Anjy,
You have a greater talent for expressing your insights than I am capable. I’ve been writing for thirty years, and am accustomed to reviewing and refining my thoughts before sharing them. This is the first website that I’ve ‘blogged’ in response to. I’m still uncertain as to what a ‘blog’ is – sounds like a particularly vile goblin with a tendency to vomit on itself.
We both appear to have descended from similar family moralities, and perhaps we are both ‘Older Souls’ displaced by time and a world congested by too many persons, and too much of everything else.
Less diversity – less contention – and a simpler old world mentality – when there were true kings … and persons of character to support them.
Thanks for keeping the arguments alive.
Grim
P.S. Thank you Susan for enticing my participation through your exceptional articles.
Grim, I don’t really know about blogs either. I am treating this one rather like a forum and so far I’m getting away with it. I don’t have the time to keep one myself, our personal dwarrowdelf aka family-of-six being rather a lot to handle, but I thoroughly enjoy coming here for exchange of thoughts.
Anjy,
I’m not sure that six qualifies as a dwarrowdelf – but I love the reference.
However – another three and you would have your own fellowship.
I’m not sure about this blogging either – but at least I can make Middle Earth references without being called odd.
I prefer … eccentric.
Grim
well, there are rooms in our house look a lot like the chamber of Mazarbul ;-) – save for the grave, of course
Anjy,
What a coincidence – I hope that that yours isn’t plagued by goblins.
They never put things back where they belong.
Taunting the obsessive-compulsive is just evil.
Cheers,
Grim
I´m afraid our house is infested with goblins. either that or there are subspace-fractures. but if it is goblins I must apologize to my children for blaming THEM.
there´s one more thing about the norse warrior subject I´d like to hear your opinion of. Our modern society tries to instill the conviction that aggressiveness is something we all should get rid of, something bad and nasty. I´m sure we fall victim to a mistakevabout our human nature there. aggression is a part of us and for a purpose. I have been watching primary school teachers for years reprimanding boys for “aggressive behaviour” while the girls were eloquently bashing one another which is every bit a aggressive. there´s something going amiss, isn´t it? but pickung up swords, even verbal ones, and hit first abd hardest can´t be the answer.
Anjy,
I believe that there is a substantial difference between our inherit aggressions to defend our families, homes and selves – and the antagonistic aggressions against others for the sake of personal gain or perversely … enjoyment.
I don’t support romanticizing violence as heroic or morally justified. It never is.
My interest in the Viking era is primarily in those who resisted the persecution of their forefathers faith, and subsequently explored and discovered Iceland, Greenland and eventually North America. The Norse weren’t primarily Vikings – they were farmers, craftsmen and nautical engineers.
Fighting to defend your community, country, king and faith – shouldn’t be condemned for the raiding, murder and moral crimes of the minority. White collar criminals, and corporate CEOs, destroy peoples lives without physical violence – but protect yourself as any other animal in nature would – and you’re barbaric.
I am undoubtedly socially and morally conservative – preferring the moral ethics and faith that I inherited from my family and community. We aren’t pacifists – but we aren’t provoking anger or physical violence either. I’m sure that you would agree that a man should be prepared to defend his family, community and those who cannot defend themselves.
You can’t protect who, and what you value – by relying on law enforcement … or calling your lawyer.
The legal system isn’t a justice system. And I’ll protect my own however I see fit.
If I didn’t … the goblins would help themselves to my pantry without reservations.
And then there’s the trolls …
Cheers,
Grim
Cattle die, kindred die,
Every man is mortal:
But I know one thing that never dies,
The glory of the great dead.
from The Words of the High One, Stanza 75. The Elder Edda / Paul B. Taylor & W.H. Auden. Faber and Faber, 1969.
I’m so glad someone quoted this here, CindyR. I was thinking of this exact stanza in the Havamal last night in regards to Thorin’s character.
Does any have the norse text? The translations I read differ a lot from the one quoted above.
http://www.beyondweird.com/high-one.html#topoftext it is to be found. I wondered because the translation by Simrock is quite different from Auden, but Genzmer has it more alike.
I made a slight mistake inmy post, it’s stanza 74 not 75.
that depends on the edition, anyway. I’ve found several ways of counting, but the stanzas meant are easily to identify. I’m going to have a thorough look at the norse text, it’sa a thrilling language.
I have the Larrington translation, which has a slightly different version:
Cattle die, kinsmen die,
the self must also die;
but glory never dies,
for the man who is able to achieve it.
This is listed as stanza 76 in the Larrington version. Also, the following stanza is also similar and appropriate:
Cattle die, kinsmen die,
the self must also die;
I know one thing which never dies:
the reputation of each dead man.
Anyway, here is a link to an Icelandic dictionary I use when I feel the need to translate stanzas of the Eddas myself:
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/oi_cleasbyvigfusson_about.html
Hope that helps!
Just wrote this reply to Susan’s blog on her page but will re-post here as well:
To further expound upon the connections with the Norse Gods, I wonder if anyone has noticed the use of the “Tiwaz” or “Tir” Rune on the top of Thorin’s ring? More specifically, the ring he wears on his right hand, it’s square and has the arrow shaped figure on the top. I seem to remember someone writing somewhere that this has to do with the Rune symbolizing the T in Tolkien’s dwarven Runic alphabet. However, I have found some deeper connections as that is the Rune connected with the God Tyr.
Tyr was a God most notably that Viking leaders looked up to as an example. Snorri, in the Prose Edda, describes Tyr as “the boldest and most courageous, and it is very much up to him who wins in battle. For men of action, he is good to invoke. The expression goes that a man is Tyr courageous if he is the type who advances out in front, never losing his courage.”
Sound familiar?
Further, the Anglo Saxon Rune poem links the Rune with the pole star, Polaris. Just as the Vikings used that star to guide them in navigating, they looked to Tyr as a model for being leaders and great warriors. This puts me in mind of the scene in the film when Balin is telling the story of when he first begins to see Thorin as a true leader, and we see Thorin looking off into the starry night. Might he be contemplating Polaris, Tyr, and his abilities as a leader?
Also it is interesting to note that Tyr is the one who sacrifices his hand when the Gods bind their enemy the Fenris wolf. (This story can also be found in the Prose Edda.)
Is it coincidence then, that Thorin’s mortal enemy Azog has his hand cut off in battle? The symbolism of the sacrifice of a hand is surely carried over here, even if in some kind of reversal from the story of Tyr and the Fenris wolf.
Personally, I have found Tyr to be obstinate, stubborn in his ways and just downright irritating at times in his adherence to rules and laws. I have seen the same comments made about Thorin.
Whitney,
Your observations are commendable, and you are right about Tyr’s obstinate adherence to the law. He is often invoked and appeased in relations concerning legal issues and maintaining order. Thor is the patron of those seeking personal justice.
Thorin is undoubtedly a reflection of both god’s strengths … but remains fallible as all mortals are.
Even the Aesir are destined to die.
Grim
I’d like to be careful here to distinguish between Peter Jackson’s Thorin and Tolkien’s. When Tolkien first wrote The Hobbit he had not yet developed the Cirth Angerthas, the runes mostly used by the dwarves although invented by the Elves, so the runic text in The HObbit and also in Thorin’s map is more or less Futhark, the old Germanic rune-system. So is, btw, the inscription on Thorin’s key now sold widely as a merchandise item.
The rune on Thorin’s left-hand ring is the one Tolkien used for Thror’s and Thrain’s signature on the map, it represents Th. So it most likely represents the link with his father and grandfather for Thorin as well as his own claim for lineage.
The dwarves do not have a specific religion in Tolkien’s work, nor do any other races. They may bear special honor to one of the Valar and Valier – Elbereth/Varda Elentari with the Elves and Aule/Mahal, their maker, with the dwarves – but these aren’t God or even gods. So, it is very unlikely bordering on the impossible that Tolkien wanted to create a likeness to Tyr or Thor, especially since his Thorin was not the inimitable norse warrior we meet in the movie.
Jackson’s/Armitage’s THorin is a different piece of cake. I wouldn’t put it past the hard and careful working guys at NLC&Co to delve into a connection with norse mythology and play with those symbols and pictures and it’s certainly interesting to discuss which symbols and images still work nowadays when norse mythology seems to be rather far-fetched topic to most people, even those who enjoy the movie. I’m just reading a book about mythological themes in current writing for young adults and it’s surprising how many pictures still work, even though the readers don’t know much about the background. There is obviously something archetypical in human nature that springs to attention when presented with them.
Excellent article. I grew up primarily on Norse (and Greek and Arthurian) mythology, and the traditions of my father’s roots (the mixed Norse/Gaelic culture of the West Highlands – my father’s first name translates as ‘Wisdom of Thor’) and the Anglo-Danish Yorkshire where I grew up (my mother’s ancestors in 11-12C North Yorkshire had names like Sigrid and Thorfinn). I was read The Hobbit and LotR as a complete bedtime story by my Dad when I was 6. By 9, I was on Njal’s Saga (in English). I love songs such as ‘A Mhic Iain ‘ic Sheumais’. I ‘get’ Thorin completely. He did exactly what I expected of him, facing down his enemy : he’s utterly magnificent – the sort of tragic hero I can’t help but fall for. You face the enemy and you go down fighting, taking as many of them with you as you can.
So are the boys: their ultimate fate reminds me of nothing less than the 7 warriors who died defending the mortally wounded ‘Eachann Ruadh’, Sir Hector MacLean, in the Civil War battle of Inverkeithing in 1651. Each threw himself in front of the chief with the cry “Fear eile airson Eachuinn!” (“Another for Hector!”), which then became the MacLean war-cry. (See the marvellous poems, ‘A Ruined Church’ and ‘Clan MacLean’, by Sorley MacLean/Somhairle MacGill-Eain for modern literary references).
I gogled Sorley Macleean and only found some very pacifistic poems. Can you give me a link to the ones you meant?
He wasn’t a pacifist. He was a WW2 veteran who had previously considered fighting in Spain,
Here’s A Ruined Church:
There is a ruin of a church in the Ross of Mull
in which there has not been a congregation
or a religious service since the day
Inverkeithing was fought.
The day when the pride of our clan
took the high jump into the permanent;
the standing jump that spoiled them,
that left their oak an aspen.
A day is cut to permanence
as marble and gold are cut:
in the shortness is the stretching
on which love and pride take hold.
Life is long in the memory of death
when a deed cuts the body’s life:
Yellow(-haired) Niall young in the bed of dust,
and Red(-haired) Hector in the heavy clay.
But what of the hundreds of others
of whom scores were quite as high
in spirit as their chief,
or as the brother of the bard?
Elsewhere he refers to “the ruinous pride of the MacLeans” and in Clan MacLean:
Not they who died
in the hauteur of Inverkeithing
in spit of valour and pride
the high head of our story;
but he who was in Glasgow
the battle-post of the poor,
great John MacLean,
the top and hem of our story.
There’s also a traditional song c. 1601, attrib. to NicCoiseam, foster-mother of Domhnall mac Iain ‘ic Sheaumais of the MacDonalds, of which I am reminded: A Mhic Iain ‘ic Sheumais. Runrig did a brilliant recording of it. The version I know has slight variants in the lyrics: “Bha do leine na ballan.
Bha fuil do chuirp uasail
Air uachdar an fhearainn.
Bha fuil do chuim chùbhraidh
A’ drùdhadh tron anart” –
“Your (linen) shirt was in pieces.
The blood of your noble body
was all over the ground.
The blood of your fragrant breast
soaked through your clothing,”
(then the bit abour her drinking it from the wound.)
My keyboard keeps sticking: “in spite of valour and pride”
This sounds VERY different to what I was handed by google ;-), though I must say it feels a bit awkward in English. Is it true that the real feel of the poetry would be available in Gaelic or were they originally in English? There is a ruined church, relic from WW II, in my town. I’ll have to go and have another look at the poem there. Thank you for posting it.
The translations of A Ruined Church and <Clan MacLean are Sorley MacLean’s own. My Gaelic isn’t very good (it was my great-grandfather’s second language, from his mother, who was from Sutherland), although I can sing in it a bit. The poems sound fine either way. I heard him read live, in the 1980s, and he signed my books! He had thought about going to fight in Spain in the 1930s, but family circumstances held him back. He then served in the army in North Africa in WW2 and was invalided home with wounds, and became a schoolteacher.
The idea re: A Ruined Church is that it was abandoned in the mid 17C because its people had been killed over in Fife. (Island churches of this kind were quite tiny) There’s now talk of Fife Council building a park-and-ride carpark on the battle site at Inverkeithing. I wish Sorley were still alive to campaign on that: we both probably have relatives lying there. (One of my paternal great-grandmothers was a MacLean.)
But the story is that when the young chief, Sir Hector (known as Eachann Ruadh, the Red-haired), was mortally wounded in the battle with the Cromwellian forces, 7 men (possibly his foster-brothers – I can’t recall the details) threw themselves in front of him one at a time to protect him, shouting “Fear eile airson Eachuinn!” – “Another for Hector!” The MacLeans were left pretty well broken in power because of the heavy casualties (hence, “which left our oak an aspen”).
The traditional song is a great one. The 16-17C narrative songs often show much older roots in style and imagery.