Tags
aragorn, arkenstone, boromir, dwarves, essay, quest of erebor, richard armitage, sean bean, the lord of the rings, the one ring, thorin, tolkien
Richard Armitage as Thorin Oakenshield, and Sean Bean as Boromir
Legacy of the People: The Burdens of Thorin Oakenshield and Boromir of Gondor
By DarkJackal
I’m sure you’ve seen it stated already, “Richard Armitage’s Thorin is the Aragorn of The Hobbit.” I considered this a while ago, especially in light of the fact Viggo Mortensen and Armitage both sing a mean solo tune, but after initial enthusiasm for the idea, I discarded it for lack of proof. It might appear that Thorin and Aragorn, as returning kings, would have much in common, but despite a few similarities, they are less alike than Thorin is to Boromir (read this essay by Susan Messer Chan for a comparison of Thorin and Aragorn). Although these are somewhat superfluous details, both Thorin and Boromir are still unmarried, had younger brothers and strong-willed fathers. Both have seen war and are renowned for their bravery. Boromir may not be royalty, but he is the closest thing to it in the Heir of Isildur’s absence. Meanwhile, Thorin has the credentials of a king, but few people treat him as such. Before his modest reign in the Blue Mountains, he had endured exile and a period of humility, returning to basic blacksmithing for survival (despite this he has not lost a sense of self-importance). But most importantly, Boromir and Thorin have tangible flaws, while Aragorn’s are so fleeting they may pass unmarked (let’s face it, Aragorn is nearly messianic in his perfection). Both leaders make decisions which favor their own nations to the possible detriment of others. I feel that with the King under the Mountain, and the Steward’s son, Tolkien challenges the reader to decide if putting the needs of one’s own people ahead of all other peoples can be considered noble or not. This is pretty typical behavior for a leader (if they are not looking out for your interests, they are not much of a leader) but when these characters are compared to someone like Aragorn, who sets aside the fulfillment of his personal legacy while protecting many races, they come across as selfish and unenlightened, which is rather unfair (read my essay for a further defense of Thorin’s behavior in the original book).
One must be careful when comparing characters in the Tolkien universe to identify the source as either movie or film, since there can be wide discrepancies between each. Movie-Boromir is both hero and villain, most famous for having assisted, and then betrayed, the Ringbearer (and overall, he remains very similar to his textual counterpart). In contrast, movie-Thorin comes across as an unflinching hero, with the writers even adding in moments where he risks his life to save Balin and Bilbo. This is a decidedly different vibe from the early chapters of The Hobbit. It is true Tolkien’s Thorin had a moment or two of fearless altruism, such as when he fights the trolls with a burning branch after the rest of his Company have been put in sacks, but these great deeds are offset by having been the one to encourage Bilbo to wander alone into what turned out to be the troll camp (you’ll notice in the film that Thorin is not to blame for Bilbo having a run in with the trolls). I feel the addition of Bilbo and Balin’s rescue was made to more firmly establish Thorin’s hero status, so that it will be much more difficult to watch what happens to him in later films (if you don’t think that is necessary, keep in mind he will have some strong competition for the valiant leader spot from Luke Evans’ Bard, and Orlando Bloom’s Legolas in the next movie, and perhaps from Lee Pace’s Elvenking in the third film).
Fortunately, Richard Armitage assures us that by the last film Thorin will probably become more distasteful to viewers. In the interests of character complexity, I hope he is right. Although Armitage’s Thorin makes a standout hero in An Unexpected Journey, the unique ability of Tolkien’s Thorin was being able to inspire readers to both love and hate the actions he takes. We only see a hint of the darkness inherent in the character in this film (mostly through the scene where he lingers in the shadows of Erebor while witnessing his grandfather’s growing obsession with gold).
Even if you know nothing about what happens later in the book, and the role which “dragon sickness” plays on the mind of dwarves, the viewer should be able to recognize a sense of foreboding here, which relates to more than just the gold luring the dragon to the mountain.
But as much as I would love to compare and contrast the film versions of Boromir and Thorin, I don’t believe justice can be done to the task without witnessing the full cycle of Thorin’s cinematic fate, which won’t be realized until December of 2014. So barring that, we must return to the text. In this essay I will draw on all the sources in which Tolkien wrote about Thorin, including The Hobbit, “The Quest of Erebor” in The Unfinished Tales, and “Appendix A” of The Return of the King, and for Boromir, from The Fellowship of the Ring, and The Two Towers.
*Spoilers for the books to follow*
“Orcrist” and “Boromir” by Magali Villeneuve
Before we meet them, Boromir and Thorin have long had difficulties which they cannot overcome on their own; Boromir’s people are in danger of being overrun by the forces of Mordor. Thorin’s people have been in exile for many years with no ability to oust the source of their troubles:
The years lengthened. The embers in the heart of Thorin grew hot again, as he brooded on the wrongs of his House and of the vengeance upon the Dragon that was bequeathed to him. He thought of weapons and armies and alliances, as his great hammer rang in the forge; but the armies were dispersed and the alliances broken and the axes of his people were few; and a great anger without hope burned him, as he smote the red iron on the anvil. (Appendix A, ROTK)
Both leaders possess just enough humility and open-mindedness to seek out help from untested allies; Boromir takes it upon himself to make a solo journey to Rivendell after his brother Faramir has a prophetic dream encouraging such action (Boromir claims he once shared the dream). As for Thorin, he just happened to be in the same location as Gandalf when the two thought about asking for the others’ help. This bolstered the idea that their chance meeting was more than just coincidence. As Gandalf recounted:
He was troubled too, so troubled that he actually asked for my advice. So I went with him to his halls in the Blue Mountains, and I listened to his long tale. I soon understood that his heart was hot with brooding on his wrongs, and the loss of the treasure of his forefathers, and burdened too with the duty of revenge upon Smaug that he had inherited. Dwarves take such duties very seriously. (The Unfinished Tales)
Both Thorin and Boromir are disappointed in the type of help they are able to procure. In “Quest of Erebor”, Thorin is very reluctant to trust Gandalf’s choice of a burglar. Similarly, Boromir is initially suspicious and scornful of Aragorn, and taken aback when he is revealed as Isildur’s Heir. After recounting his own people’s failing efforts to hold back the growing forces of Mordor, his desperation is plain, but his pride is even more obvious. It is Boromir who first suggests they utilize the power of the Ring rather than destroy it, but he reluctantly accepts the decision of the Council, and assures them Gondor will continue the fight to the last. But he also suggests that help (in the form of Aragorn) must come soon if it is to be of any use. He does not actually reject the idea of Aragorn returning and claiming his birthright, but he is impatient to see if the Ranger will live up to expectations.
When Thorin sought Gandalf’s help, he was likely expecting the wizard to conjure up something more impressive than Bilbo Baggins. Like Boromir, Thorin was slow to accept the concept of not using force to get what he wanted, as Gandalf explains:
I promised to help him if I could. I was as eager as he was to see the end of Smaug, but Thorin was all for plans of battle and war, as if he were really King Thorin the Second, and I could see no hope in that. (The Unfinished Tales)
But Thorin does go along with Gandalf’s plan, and despite hardships along the way, there is no great falling out between any of the Company until they get to the Lonely Mountain, and well after the dragon is killed. It is then that the differences between dwarves and hobbits emerge and become a point of contention. Thorin is just beginning to reassert his claim to his kingdom by marshaling whatever means he can in its defense. He is adamant about not allowing himself to be pushed into a compromise by the army of the Elvenking. Being of a very different mind, Bilbo begins to weary of the siege he has become entrapped in, and longs for peace and home.
Similarly, during his journey with the Fellowship, Boromir is on good terms with his companions, even if he offers differing opinions. It takes a while before he starts to develop an unhealthy obsession over what he intends to do about the Ring. Before the audience with Galadriel in Lorien, he agrees to help the Ringbearer as much as he can before departing for Gondor. But whatever Galadriel put into his mind as a test of character awoke the very thing she suspected was lying dormant; a personal desire for the Ring. Boromir begins to fall into darker thoughts, which some of the others sense. Frodo noticed the change back in Lorien, and in the boats on the Great River, Boromir’s state of mind becomes plain enough that Pippin sees an odd gleam in his eye.
It is interesting that Thorin was also in close proximity to the Ring for an extended time, but felt no desire for it. Reasons for this may include the Ring not having the same power over dwarves as other races, but most likely because Sauron had not yet begun his campaign to get the Ring to return to him through its bearer. Instead of the Ring, Thorin has a personal obsession with another object; the Arkenstone, which has significantly less importance to Middle-earth than the Ring, but far more importance to Thorin on a personal level:
“For the Arkenstone of my father,” he said, “is worth more than a river of gold in itself, and to me it is beyond price. That stone of all the treasure I name unto myself, and I will be avenged on anyone who finds it and withholds it.” (The Hobbit)
The Arkenstone is of great importance to the direct descendants of Thrain I, who found it in the Lonely Mountain, and passed it down for generations. It was a unique glowing gem, but comparing it to something like the Silmarils, (other gems which caused great strife within and between the races) the Arkenstone is a relative newcomer to the list of Middle-earth artifacts (only known to the dwarves for 800 years or so). It has no true powers (aside from its glow). It was not made by anyone important, nor played a great role in past events. The Elvenking is later impressed by it, and Bilbo is driven to pocket it, so we know it must be very attractive (enchanting), but no one, aside from Thorin, absolutely must have it. It is an heirloom, but even there we have little description of how it was used in dwarven culture (of course the film expands on this to make the stone vital to Thror’s claim of dominion over everyone in the area, including the elves, but that’s taking it rather far). One could speculate there was some sort of intangible connection between the kings of Erebor and the Mountain’s Heart, but this is just a fancy of mine. More rationally, it was a convenient focal point for their pride.
Like Boromir after Lorien, Thorin’s change of personality happens once they are in the Lonely Mountain with the Arkenstone yet undiscovered by him, and the armies of the Lake-men and Elves making demands outside the gate. Having found the stone in the dragon hoard, Bilbo suspected that Thorin would not forgive him for keeping it secret, but he still held onto it. Despite this, or more likely because of this, Bilbo formulates his plan to use the Arkenstone as leverage to stop the siege.
The main difference between Thorin and Boromir is that Thorin is betrayed by a member of his Company, while Boromir betrays the Fellowship he has agreed to protect. When Frodo ventures off alone to think of his decision regarding the breaking of the Fellowship, he feels an unfriendly presence even before he sees the smiling face of Boromir. It is the fact that Boromir has become sneaky which disgraces him as much as anything. Thorin never hides his intentions from his allies. Whether or not Bilbo’s decision regarding the stone was ultimately more ethical than Thorin’s is immaterial. It is true that after the betrayal by Bilbo, Thorin secretly hopes Dain’s army can get there before he is forced to give up the gold that would have been paid to get back the stone, but since he was being blackmailed into it, one can hardly call this foul play.
This is not to say that Thorin has no flaws, but they should be judged according to the perceptions of his own people, which we have little knowledge of save for a line or two from Bombur to Bilbo, right before Bilbo is about to take the stone to the enemy. Bombur’s words mark Thorin as a stubborn dwarf:
“A sorry business altogether. Not that I venture to disagree with Thorin, may his beard grow ever longer; yet he was ever a dwarf with a stiff neck.” (The Hobbit)
Clearly Bombur is not the ultimate example to judge other dwarves by, with a desire to eat and sleep being his prime motivators (rather like a hobbit). But it does give the feeling that Thorin was known to be difficult to persuade once he set his mind to something. Even so, you don’t see the whole Company stand against him openly at any time in the story. There is a bit of muttering from the “younger dwarves” who would earlier have preferred to welcome the merry-making armies outside as friends rather than enemies, but although Tolkien later names Fili, Kili, and Bombur as having wished for a different solution, most still believe Thorin to be in the right. Later there is more widely felt dismay at the way Thorin behaves to Bilbo at the Gate, but it remains unspoken, so what he chooses to do must not be entirely unacceptable to them.
By this point in Boromir’s story, the power of the Ring had bested him, and turned his mind from a simple desire to protect Gondor, to the idea that he could rule quite effectively in Aragorn’s absence:
“Boromir strode up and down, speaking ever more loudly. Almost he seemed to have forgotten Frodo, while his talk dwelt on walls and weapons, and the mustering of men; and he drew plans for great alliances and glorious victories to be; and he cast down Mordor, and became himself a mighty king, benevolent and wise.” (FOTR)
This is reminiscent of Thorin’s thoughts “of weapons and armies and alliances” and his unlikely (in Gandalf’s opinion) “plans of battle and war”. Both were thinking as if they were kings, and yet neither had the resources of a king, and the futility of this makes them appear foolish.
At this point Boromir discards pretense, making his intentions clear to Frodo. His argument is not unreasonable; the Ringbearer wandering without escort of an army into the very heart of the evil that seeks it does sound like a bad idea. But Boromir refuses to recognize that he is being manipulated by Sauron when he thinks such thoughts. It takes an exceptional amount of trust in the council of the Wise, and an immense strength of will, to combat the siren song of the Ring, and Boromir was poor in this regard. The fact that he made it so far before attempting to take the Ring is a testament to his inherently honorable nature.
Both Boromir and Thorin descend into a maddened state when their respective hobbits thwart what they consider their right to the object of their desire. Boromir shouts at Frodo:
“If any mortals have claim to this Ring, it is the men of Numenor, and not Halflings. It is not yours save by unhappy chance. It might have been mine. It should be mine. Give it to me!”…And suddenly he sprang over the stone and leaped at Frodo. His fair and pleasant face was hideously changed; a raging fire was in his eyes. (TTT)
Thorin reacts no better when he sees the Arkenstone in the hands of his enemies:
Thorin at length broke the silence, and his voice was thick with wrath. “That stone was my father’s, and is mine,” he said….“How came you by it?” shouted Thorin in gathering rage. (The Hobbit)
When Bilbo admits that it was he who handed the Arkenstone over to Bard and the Elvenking, Thorin is not at all mollified by his honesty:
“You! You!” cried Thorin, turning upon him and grasping him with both hands. “You miserable hobbit! You undersized—burglar!” he shouted at a loss for words, and he shook poor Bilbo like a rabbit. (The Hobbit)
Gandalf finally speaks up and helps to redirect Thorin’s anger, persuading him to give Bilbo back unharmed, which he does with a curse. He wastes no time in sending messages to his approaching allies from the Iron Hills, informing them of the treachery. Thorin remains convinced he is doing the right thing, until possibly the very last moments of his life.
Boromir, on the other hand, feels the guilt of his actions immediately after Frodo disappears. But his honor wavers again as he only half explains to the group what transpired between himself and Frodo. Sam said it best when he told himself “Boromir isn’t lying, that’s not his way; but he hasn’t told us everything.” The typical honesty of Boromir is another mark in his favor, even if it slipped into deceit at the worst time. Incidentally, Thorin is also a poor liar in the books, presumably from lack of practice. The story he gave to the Goblin King would fool no one, and his terse answers to the Elvenking’s questioning in the dungeon of Mirkwood showed someone who would rather trust to silence than invention (I was pleased to see the movie version is possibly even less skilled at lying, being almost entirely silent during the audience with the Goblin King, and leaving the talking to Gandalf when Elrond asks about the map).
When Aragorn hears about what transpired with Frodo, he knows Boromir has really done it this time, but gives him a chance at redemption by finding and protecting Merry and Pippin from orcs. Pippin later recounted the fight:
Then Boromir had come leaping through the trees. He had made them fight. He slew many of them and the rest fled. But they had not gone far on the way back when they were attacked again, by a hundred Orcs at least, some of them very large, and they shot a rain of arrows: always at Boromir. Boromir had blown his great horn till the woods rang, and at first the Orcs had been dismayed and had drawn back; but when no answer but the echoes came, they had attacked more fiercely than ever. (TTT)
Aragorn hears the sound of Boromir’s horn, though he is not there to see the final fight:
Then suddenly with a deep-throated call a great horn blew, and the blasts of it smote the hills and echoed in the hollows, rising in a mighty shout above the roaring of the falls. (TTT)
There is an echo of the motif of the horn in a similar scene from Thorin’s charge into the Battle of Five Armies:
“To me! To me! Elves and Men! To me! O my kinsfolk!” He cried, and his voice shook like a horn in the valley. (The Hobbit)
While both Boromir and Thorin were able to beat back the enemy for a short time, the tide soon turned against them. Thorin’s group was “forced into a great ring, facing every way, hemmed all about with goblins and wolves returning to the assault.” The last stand of Thorin is given as an account after the battle:
The dwarves were making a stand still about their lords upon a low rounded hill. Then Beorn stooped and lifted Thorin, who had fallen pierced with spears, and bore him out of the fray. (The Hobbit)
We discover just how desperate the fight had become when we learn that Fili and Kili had “fallen defending him with shield and body, for he was their mother’s elder brother.”
Boromir’s battle had been lost as well. When Aragorn found him, he was alone, and the hobbits had been taken:
He was sitting with his back to a great tree, as if he was resting. But Aragorn saw that he was pierced with many black-feathered arrows; his sword was still in his hand, but it was broken near the hilts; his horn cloven in two was at his side. Many Orcs lay slain, piled all about him and at his feet. (TTT)
Thorin also showed the marks of a brutal battle:
There indeed lay Thorin Oakenshield, wounded with many wounds, and his rent armour and notched axe were cast upon the floor. (The Hobbit)
“The Death of Thorin” by John Howe, and “The Death of Boromir” by CG Warrior
In his dying moments, Boromir admits to his ignoble actions:
Aragorn knelt beside him. Boromir opened his eyes and strove to speak. At last slow words came. “I tried to take the Ring from Frodo,” he said. “I am sorry. I have paid….Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed.”
“No!” said Aragorn, taking his hand and kissing his brow. “You have conquered. Few have gained such a victory. Be at peace! Minas Tirith shall not fall!”
Boromir smiled. (TTT)
Likewise, Bilbo has a last audience with Thorin:
“Farewell, good thief,” he said. “I go now to the halls of waiting to sit beside my fathers, until the world is renewed. Since I leave now all gold and silver, and go where it is of little worth, I wish to part in friendship from you, and I would take back my words and deeds at the Gate.”
Bilbo knelt on one knee filled with sorrow. “Farewell, King under the Mountain!” he said. “This is a bitter adventure, if it must end so; and not a mountain of gold can amend it. Yet I am glad that I have shared in your perils—that has been more than any Baggins deserves.”
“No!” said Thorin. “There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West. Some courage and some wisdom, blended in measure. If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. But sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell!” (The Hobbit)
At the end, Boromir and Thorin acknowledge their mistakes, and repent of their choices. After death, both are laid to rest with great dignity. Thorin was buried in the Lonely Mountain, and his former enemies, Bard and the Elvenking, laid the Arkenstone and Orcrist upon his tomb.
Boromir was set upon the Great River in an elven boat by the remaining members of the Fellowship, with his cloven horn and broken sword. Through his death, Boromir had regained the respect of his companions, and the song that Aragorn and Legolas sing of him shows only remorse and honor.
But after all this, the question remains, can Thorin and Boromir still be considered noble? I feel the answer is an obvious yes, because while they may have made mistakes in life, both gave up their lives in payment. They never desired things only for their own needs. It is a very fine line, but in craving the Arkenstone, Thorin sought to protect the manifestation of his people’s pride, while Boromir’s desire for the Ring was only to help the people of Gondor. The Wise would have steered them away from such folly, but like most people of Middle-earth, they did not possess great wisdom, only a proud heart, a heavy burden, and the deeply felt legacy of their people.
And now, for another comparison of Thorin and Boromir, I encourage you to read Susan Messer Chan’s essay, which comes to slightly different conclusions about these two characters.
Additional info: For those who were wondering about what the scene from the film showing Thorin backing into the shadows might signify, here is an interview which is relevant. On page 2 Richard Armitage talks about greed, dragon sickness, Thror, and Thorin’s feelings about it all.
archedcory1 said:
Very interesting essay, congrats!
I wanted to comment on the included gif. I was very surprised by what you said about this scene because when I saw this in the movie for the first time I was confused and thought: “Uhm what? This is not the Thorin I know!” Cause to ME at least this looks as if he is disgusted by Thror’s greed for the gold. I couldn’t see any of his own future dragon/gold troubles in this facial expression hence thinking “This is a too good trait for somebody like Thorin.”
I think it’s funny how two people can see the same thing so totally different.
D.J. said:
That is also how I view the scene. He is not pleased by what he sees in his grandfather, but what we can’t really know yet is whether this greed will become a part of him if given a chance. We know from interviews with Richard that it is something his character fears, becoming obsessed in the same way. It is another change from the book version.
archedcory1 said:
Whoops, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. However now I fully get your point. Thanks!
Misty said:
It is Thorin’s retreat into the darkness that gives the foreboding impression. Did you notice how slow a motion it is? He moves very slowly and he is consumed by darkness gradually just in the way such a sickness would develop in somebody.
As for the expression on his face, I sense a mixture of multiple things. He is very much concerned, he feels that there is serious distress, that something bad will follow (meaning not only the dragon), that he is not able to help it and the despair and bitterness caused by it (also for his grandfather as a person). At the same time he himself fears falling into the same sickness and not being able to help it within himself either with time. And I believe he is also concerned about his people, if the king goes mad, who will lead them, or where would a mad king lead them? Also, if others outside the walls of Erebor would find out about the king gone insane, others, who even at those times had lust for gold or power, or for other reasons, would not they turn against Erebor, thinking that it was not that strong anymore? All this I can detect on Thorin’s face in this scene.
Anjy Roemelt said:
where do you people get the time to write so long an essay?😉 I just stole the time to read it from my schedule. It’s brilliant, a very thorough analysis and a well presented point. So, here are my two-cents added.
At first I wondered at the comparison at all. To me, Boromir is a boy, even more so in the movie but also in the film. It may be the over-dominating figure of Denethor, but I never took Boromir seriously (and I never liked him). He wants his father to be king (Faramir mentions that) and he wanted to be king himself.
Thorin, on the other hand, is a man whose life has been long enough to know what it would be like to be a king. He is not after some romantic dream of crown and sceptre, to him it’s the wealth, past and future of his people. The people he does not rule in the full sense of the meaning, but the people whose fate he bears in the double sense of the meaning. He is older, cleverer – if not wiser – and tougher than Boromir. Especially in the original book Thorin comes over more like a merchant sometimes than a warrior (The Quest to Erebor has a different tinge).
Aside from the differences in the characters there is the difference in the races. Boromir represents mankind in the fellowship, more so than Aragorn who is of numenorean descent and thus has an Elvish air about him ( and I agree with the term “messianic” you choose even to its theological implication), and we know that men desire power more than anything else. So does Boromir. Power to safe his people, yes, but would it end there? Gondor being the greatest, most powerful realm Middle-Earth has ever seen would not have been totally contratry to his liking, I believe. If Boromir had taken the Ring, Rohan would have been the second to feel this power – after Mordor.
Dwarves do not seek to dominate other races. They want, fight for and defend THEIR own, not that of other races. When Thorin and Gandalf meet in UNfinished Tales Gandalf describes Bilbo as a wealthy Hobbit who owns decorative items (was it weapons? the book is downstairs😉 ) and the dwarves answer “so, he is a thief” assuming he stole these things from dwarves. I was strongly reminded of the concept of possession J.K. Rowlings invented for goblins in her books – if it was crafted by a goblin it belongs to the goblins, even if it is sold and payed for. (compare also the story of Thingol and the Nauglamir). Thorins motives to recapture his wealth and the mountain are entirely different from Boromirs, he never seeks to expand, just to conserve.
As for the Arkenstone itself, the comparison to the Silmaril is tempting and I like it but you are right, of course, the Arkenstone isn’t magic or sacred, just very precious, especially to Thorin. That’s what makes it the perfect tool to “handle” Thorin. I wouldn’t say you can’t call it foul play because he was blackmailed in the beginning. If he wants to be king he ought to know about right and wrong better than anyone else. But this is a human perspective on kingship, too. A dwarvish perspective would be subtly different. In keeping his hoard by any means Thorin would do what a dwarvish king could be expected to by his people: conserve their wealth, defend their rights.
Still, Gandalf says “you do not make a very splendid figure as King under the Mountain”. The dwarves aren’t on their own in Middle-Earth but have to suffer the verdict of all the free races. Some of them do better than others, Dain seems to be all other races could wish for, as later was Gimli. Thorin is not the splendid king he wanted to be, it would be pointless to deny this. He may be turned into a noble figure because he died – for what? For joining in the battle? It was brave to do that, but his own people were in danger and he’s a dwarf. He wouldn’t stand by and watch Dain and his warriors be slaughtered by orcs of all races. Boromir, on the other hand, really died in self-sacrifice. He WAS a hero in the end and much more than a boy and his father’s favorite.
But Thorin, sub-standard though he may have been, was the ONLY king who tried to regain Erebor for the dwarves and that makes sense in story-telling. You need a different hero for the trying than for the keeping of a treasure. Think of Moses, who was never allowed to enter the promised land himself (also fas a punishment for shortcomings, btw), but still had to do the traveling through the desert for 40 years. Thorin, in a way, is failure glorified in the end for the effort, not for the gain, which imhO makes him far more interesting than Dain – or Aragorn.
D.J. said:
You don’t even want to know where I’m getting this time from
That’s an interesting comment about Thorin in the books having more of a merchant like attitude for much of the story. He is certainly less regal throughout most of the book, only really asserting his status as King when he gets to Laketown. A lot of that is because he doesn’t want everyone to know of his agenda.
Funny you mention the decorative items Bilbo owns as being proof to the dwarves that he is a thief. The best part is Gandalf says that Bilbo eats with silver tools, and drinks out of fine crystal in order to entice the dwarves to give him a chance, which they take the wrong way, and are even more scornful of in the end. In a version of “Quest of Erebor” in The Annotated Hobbit there is line I have not read anywhere else, where Thorin’s critical eye is not to be fooled by Gandalf’s hype, and he says:
“Thief!” he snorted. “He is as honest as he is silly. His mother died too soon. And anyway many of the spoons were tin. You are playing some strange game of your own Master Gandalf.”
Never try to fool a dwarf about precious metal. I love that even in the midst of all his other complaints over Bilbo, he doesn’t let that little detail slide.
Misty said:
“Thorin is not the splendid king he wanted to be.” How could he have been, when others did not let him be one? Bard and the Elvenking came armed to his doors, not asking but demanding a share from the treasure with doubtful or no rights to it (see my longer comment on these issues under ‘In Defense of Thorin Oakeshield’ if you are interested) and his friend from Thorin’s perspective betrayed him by taking the item that meant everything for him (not only his right to be king, but all his past, everything he had lived for and gone through, the loyalty to his grandfather and father and to his people…). Under such circumstances it would not have been easy for anybody to be a splendid king. Had not they come armed, had not they claimed him besieged if he was unwilling to share the treasure, had not the Elvenking imprison them with no good reason, had not Bilbo taken the Arkenstone, had not… I am more than sure that he would have been much more splendid.
mmgilchrist said:
What I find unforgiveable is Gandalf shaming him in front of his own men and his enemies. You don’t do that to people from his kind of culture – scolding him like a schoolmaster. I think what spoils the story is the author’s blatant advocacy of Hobbits and Hobbit-ness, and this is a clear example of it.
norma said:
You don’t do that to anybody in any culture
retrowarbird said:
On the contrary – Gandalf (right to his marrow … right to his core, he’s secretly basically “the spirit of clarity”, or the “angel of understanding”) excels at telling people not what they want to hear, but always what they need to hear, right then, at that moment.
Gandalf’s words would ring in Thorin’s ears even as war broke out in front of his gates, and since we don’t really see Thorin again until the Company rallies out the gates in illustrious, legendary ramor and routs the enemy right to the heart of Bolg’s formation, we can look at Gandalf’s exact words “splendid king” as the catalyst for Thorin’s wake up call.
D.J. said:
Interesting take on it. To pinpoint those words as a helpful slap in the face. But I don’t know that it changed the course of his behavior. Did he really “wake up”? What would he have done differently? They were preparing for war anyway. No doubt he was watching the fight from the Mountain and saw the change of alliances due to the orcs arrival. Thorin and Co. were the only ones to defend the Mountain from invasion until Dain got closer, so they could not leave it any sooner than they did. It is true when he does charge out he calls on all the races to help him. But that seems like simple necessity, rather than a vast change of heart.
But agree about Gandalf remaining true to his unique ways of “helping” people.
mmgilchrist said:
I see it more as ultimately provoking Thorin to suicidal action because he’s had his honour impugned in front of others. That’s how someone from his kind of culture would take it.
tigrislilium said:
Yes. This. Thorin. Was. Betrayed.
Like most people, especially people of cultures emphasizing honor, loyalty & fidelity to contracts, he responded poorly. The pouring of gasoline on the bonfire by the quintessential meddling old man, past whom I’d never put triggering a suicidal run if he thought it would benefit said meddling, utterly failed to de-escalate the situation. Where was Istari wisdom when it was needed, eh?
Should Thorin have given into his Dark Side? No. Was he mightily provoked? Oh yes indeed.
mmgilchrist said:
I think the problem is more that he responded perfectly according to the norms of his culture – and Gandalf knew he would and deliberately provoked him to that end. But he should not have been put in a position where he thinks the only way to save face is to take action which stands a very high chance of killing him and his entourage. Gandalf sees him as expendable. That is what really distressed me as a child. Bilbo has behaved appallingly, but Gandalf backs him up and makes Thorin, the wronged party, pay for it.
This is also where I think the films’ playing up of so-called ‘dragon-sickness’ weaken the story, but it has seemed to me from childhood that the central problem in the last part of the story is about cultures with different honour codes (bar Hobbits, who don’t seem to have one) and the fact that all the rulers are trying to do their job according to them. All are right, according to their own rules and in the interests of their own people (so I wouldn’t say Thorin “gives into his Dark Side”).
Wizards strike me as like the high-level politicians who make their decisions and send other people off to die in wars.
tigrislilium said:
I always saw more the sheer injustice dealt to Thorin & his dispossessed people and tend to overlookthe cultures clashing. Thank you for pointing out why that cultural clashing is important. Seems then for want of a diplomat, a House was lost.
Wizards as politicians – that would explain much. Such are not often known for good care of their tools.
The dragon sickness bugs me. I get greed & possessiveness. If this sickness is not solely triggered by wearing one of the 7, surely it must be aggrevated by that wearing? Yet we see others in the story who are known to have had zero contact with that ring acting in ways interpret able as dragon sickness or as you stated culturesclashing.
Mohamed Ghita said:
Actually, they did have rights to Thorin’s gold..if you remember, the gold and treasures of Dale were rampaged by Smaug and piled with all the rest of Erebor’s gold so Bard really had a roght to it being the King of Dale by inheritance..as far as i’m concerned, the way Bard spends his money in fixing the city of Lake Town (which bore damage from Thorin’s decision to enter the Mountain) is none of Thorin’s business and they did house them and give them food, water and shelter when they needed ut the most..Bard has every right to give some of his gold to to the Elves as they are friends of the Men of Lake townand helped them in their distress after Smaug destroyed their city..Things don’t always come easy, a true king would have made the right choice when tested..Thorin did not but he repented much later so he can be forgiven. Any person would have done the right thing if they were not challenged and pressured to do wrong..but then how shall we know who is faithful and who is not? Who is brave enough to do what’s right and humbly sacrifice some of their property for peace?
mmgilchrist said:
it would need work and time to identify what proportion of the horde belonged to Dale. Bard turned up with an army and demanded – he didn’t ask nicely. He could have come with civilians and carts if it was just to remove it. What was the army there for?
norma said:
Agreed how Bard spent his money was not Thorin’s business. So too it was none of the Elvenking’s business who Thorin talked to. So why couldn’t he be gracious and voluntarily stepped back and let Thorin talk to Bard? Let them decide how best to sort out the treasure? And why did Bard not answer Thorin’s question? When the Elvenking heard Smaug had died, he set out for the mountain with an army, not to Lake Town. On the way he met Bard’s messengers asking for his help, then only he changed course to Lake Town. What was his intention in going to the mountain? To claim Dale’s treasure for Bard? If Thorin had not decided to enter the mountain (which he had every right to), who could say for how long Lake Town be safe from being attack by the dragon. Even Gandalf was worried that Sauron would make Smaug his ally and conquer Middle Earth. Anyway It attacked Lake Town because Bilbo made a slip by mentioning the barrels.
If someone were to chase you out of your house and decides it is his, wouldn’t you want to reclaim it? That’s what Thorin did, reclaiming his house.
Gratiana Lovelace said:
Great essay, DJ!
I always learn something new from your insights about Thorin and company.
I’m a neophyte Hobbit fan–haven’t finished reading all of the book, but I know what happens from other sources–but I also felt the forboding in Thorin literally and figuratively backing away from his grandfather’s obsession in your featured gif. The pain on Thorin’s face was so poignant–Thorin wanting to help, him but not knowing how.
Cheers! Grati ;->
Anjy Roemelt said:
I’m not so sure about pain (and I’ve just come back from watching it in HFR). To me he looks wary, troubled but als a little bit – can it be envious? As if all this might be his one day?
D.J. said:
You can probably read multiple emotions in this moment without being too wrong. I see something like concerned disappointment.
april73 said:
Great essay DarkJackal, bravo !
susanmesser7 said:
Excellent writing! We will have to agree to disagree on this subject though
I see things quite differently in regards to Thorin’s behavior in contrast to Boromir’s. Thorin WAS a king. He had his throne robbed from him, but he was, by rights, King Under the Mountain. Boromir was not of royal blood and should not have had such lofty pretensions as he had. His father, Denethor, started this poisonous belief-that the stewards of Gondor had as much right to rule as the hereditary rulers of Numenor. It was this malevolent line of thought that caused Denethor-and Boromir in turn-to plot on taking the Ring of Power unto themselves. Tolkien makes it clear that their minds had been poisoned by greed and delusory flights of grandeur. Boromir set off to take the ring from day one. He never intended to honor the company’s pact to destroy the Ring in the fires of Mt. Doom. He thought it completely foolish and, furthermore, believed that no one had the right to take it from him and his father! All could see that they were horribly corrupted. Even Faramir knows this from the start. When presented with the ring, despite his desperation to please his father, he declines it. He knows that it must be destroyed. To believe that it can be used to any positive end is pure madness.
Thorin, on the other hand, is the heir of the Arkenstone. This stone represents his legacy. Yes, dwarves were given to gold lust. Not unlike everyone is given to coveting money. Is it better to be less greedy? Yes. Is it going to destroy the world? No.
Also, the whole business at the Lonely Mountain is further compounded by the fact that demands are made upon him by enemies. Thorin does not say that he will NOT share the gold with the people of Laketown. He simply states that they must wait until the proper time. The Bard shows up with his enemy, Thranduil, by his side. This is the guy that Thorin blames for helping to speed the downfall of his entire race! I wouldn’t have handed over a nugget,either!
By contrast, Boromir, tries to take what is not his to take. He tries to destroy the hope of the world out of sheer greed and a blind desire to please his father. He is consumed by malevolence. Even his name means “dark jewel.” Faramir’s name means “light jewel.”
Boromir represented all the qualities that should be avoided as a human being. Thorin represented all that we ARE.
Anjy Roemelt said:
Susan, on the whole I agree with you. Still, in the book Thranduil was not responsible for the fate of Thorin’s people but just for the discomfort the company suffered in his prison. Thorin most strongly objects to the manner Bard and Thranduil appear at his gate. They do not come to beg for help, they come to demand. Also, I am less optimistic than you as for the question if the lust for money will destroy the world. I believe it has the potential to do just that, be it men or dwarves who are subject to this “disease”.
Your concluding sentence is brilliant.
D.J. said:
True that Thranduil from the book is not responsible for the exile of the dwarves in any way. Thorin’s issue with him is less profound in the book. He is aware of the Elvenking’s penchant for other people’s treasure, so is rightly wary of his intentions in Mirkwood, and especially at the Gate.
D.J. said:
I did choose to focus more on the positives rather than the negatives of Boromir. I realize he could hardly have been a better choice for Sauron’s needs if he had been hand-picked to fetch the Ring. He had all the marks of someone who would not withstand the pull of its power. But that’s where I begin to appreciate him the most. He was a strong and skilled warrior (that was proven in his slaughter of the 20 orcs before he died). He could have made his attempt on the Ring much earlier, but he hesitated. Why? Why go along with the Fellowship as long as he did?
In the end he was sorry for what he did. A man as proud as he could have ignored feelings of guilt in favor of his false sense of entitlement to the Ring. But he came back to his senses once the Ring was gone, seeing then the error he had made. And he followed Aragorn’s order to find and protect Merry and Pippin. Someone who was only ever a puppet of his father, and ultimately consumed by malevolence, would not have remained to face a hundred orcs in defense of some hobbits.
Anjy Roemelt said:
I believe this has to do with Aragorn. Boromir reacted with contempt to Aragorn in the movie and, at least, with scepticism in the book. The book does not dwell on their relationship much, but when Gandalf and Pippin arrive at Minas Tirith. Gandalf advises Pippin to be careful not to mention Aragorn. Still, later he admits that Pippin could not conceal the fact that Boromir did not lead the fellowship. INdeed he didn’t and he didn’t attempt to. He may not hace declared his loyalty to Aragorn as openly as in the film, but he accepted his leadership and he was true enough to the idea of kingship to know – maybe subconsciously or grudgingly – there was one who had to be followed. Even by the proud son of the proud steward of Gondor. And when he did Aragorn’s bidding to follow Merry and Pippin he followed the order of his leader, his king. He was prouder than was good for him, foolish and over-confident, but he was not a villain.
D.J. said:
You would have expected a jealous man to be trying to undermine Aragorn’s place in the Fellowship, but that is not Boromir’s way. He really did hope that Aragorn could bring help to Gondor, but he wasn’t certain it was enough.
retrowarbird said:
Boromir I felt had the pragmatism of the soldier. He and Faramir were really a lot alike in that regard – typically able to size up any other man’s mettle, so Aragorn must have been a weird acquaintance to make. He didn’t stay skeptical for long – the proof was in the pudding, to be sure. Most of Tolkien’s heroes of men are either proud and brash, or dour and brooding. Pride is the downfall in both Boromir and Thorin’s case, really. (And Sauron’s, and Saruman’s, and Morgoth’s, and everyone who falls, basically.)
D.J. said:
How about Grima Wormtongue? The Master of Laketown? Pride there too? Or do you just mean important people who fall?
mmgilchrist said:
You see, this is where I have to disagree with Tolkien’s value-system. I do not regard pride as a flaw. Better too much – what Sorley MacLean calls “the ruinous pride” of the MacLeans (that led to the Fíli-and–Kíli-like tragedy at Inverkeithing in 1651) than no pride at all. But Tolkien was clearly into the Christian “humility is a virtue” line. I’d rather have Thorin or Boromir as they are, than the Hobbits!
tigrislilium said:
Humility & pride are both virtues in their proper place & measure. I’ve never understood why so many insist only humility is of worth, especially when taken to excess humilty becomes the vice of hubris.
Misty said:
I absolutely agree that Thorin WAS king! He was by heritage and he became one in the moment Thrain disappeared (and later even died).
Mohamed Ghita said:
I disagree with you..Boromir was brave and cared for his people..he was not a spoiled kid and he certainly proved himself when he died defending 2 Hobbits who aren’t even of his kindred or race
Grim Helbeard said:
Foremost, I’d like to commend Dark Jackal for his impressive article. I hope that my review is as cohesive and insightful.
My perspective of Aragorn has always been one of admiration. Having descended from Numenor, he shares more in common with the elder races than he does with humans. His relationship with the elves of Rivendell has further influenced a humbler, and more balanced perspective of Middle Earth’s evolving dramas.
Unlike Boromir and Thorin, his ancestry fell into dishonor three thousand years earlier. He has lived and interacted with each of Middle Earth’s races, and even developed a friendship with Gandalf. As an exile – there are no expectations of him. How he differs the most from Boromir and Thorin, is his love for Arwen.
I’ve always felt that given the opportunity – Aragorn would have chosen to live in peace and settle down. Perhaps because of the elve’s reverence for nature and Middle Earth as a larger kingdom than belonging to any one race – he is reluctant to wage war – understanding that it will desecrate more than those who participate. His reservations are compassionate and noble, until war marches to the borders of Rohan and Gondor – necessitating defense of the realms . In Middle Earth’s most desperate hour – he shines as the beacon of unity and hope despite resistance from without, and within his host of allies.
His conflicting emotions to remain with Arwen, or to sacrifice their relationship for her return to the undying lands – is a weight of conscience that neither Boromir nor Thorin are burdened with. Aragorn is referred to a ‘Messiah’ inspired hero, and I agree, but that is his greatest strength. His resistance to the lures of power and the atrocities of waging war are noble, but it is his willingness to sacrifice his future with Arwen, living a life of peace, to unite the free peoples of Middle Earth against Sauron’s corruption that is most inspiring. Even ascending to the throne of Gondor will be a hollow future without Arwen’s company.
I’ve always been a staunch defender of Boromir. As well as I can relate to Thorin – I sympathize with Boromir more for the responsibilities and expectations that he has no choice but to fulfill. Unlike Aragorn’s burden to redeem Isildur’s fall – Boromir is hindered by his father’s persecution of Faramir, and his unyielding arrogance that Gondor is his kingdom to rule by rights of stewardship. Denethor is for all intents … a politician. He sends his knights to their deaths, while remaining safe in his seat of office – expectant that Rohan will aid Gondor in their time of need, rather than to plan for the defence of the city himself.
Boromir is a defender of the innocent, and often the most compassionate member of the fellowship. Weather comforting Gimli’s discovery of Balin’s death, the fellowship’s loss of Gandalf to the Balrog, encouraging Frodo not to despair when hindered by the Lothlorien elves, or his parental protection of Merry and Pippin until his own death in defense of their lives – Boromir is ever supporting those who are in need.
That his father expects him to protect Gondor without fail – that Boromir continues to defend his younger brother from their father’s demoralizing – and is then sent unwillingly to aid the council of Elrond when his own knights are defending his people … are overwhelming enough without the threat of Mordor’s imminent invasion. But despite overwhelming oppressions – he continues struggling to protect those who cannot protect themselves. His self sacrifice is his nobility.
Like Thorin – Boromir hasn’t the distraction of a relationship like that of Aragorn’s to Arwen. His duty is to his people – their kingdom, and his family’s lineage as stewards and protectors. His will always live a life of hardship and self sacrifice. He defends Gondor at the doors of Moria, and has no relations with the elves or dwarves. At best, he maintains a frail alliance with the kingdom of Rohan. For all intents … he is alone in his defense of Middle Earth, and can’t rely on, nor concern himself with the other races. He is always at war, and can only ever rely on himself and his men.
Thorin, likewise is left to fend for the dwarves of Erebor, when his father exiles himself in madness. Thorin is the heir of Erebor, and expected to redeem his family’s honor by uniting and protecting his people – even displaced from their ancestral home. For Thorin, there is no end to the struggle but the continued striving to redeem his family’s honor, to recover and defend Erebor and to protect his people that they may live in peace.
Thorin and Boromir are heros doomed to die alone. They live a lifetime of responsibility and burden to their families, people and kingdoms. The comfort of wives, children, prosperity and peace are their responsibilities to others, and always will be. They each die facing overwhelming odds – for the benefit of others. Their legacies are the heroism and nobility that we continue aspiring towards. They are the the kings we would all follow to whatever end.
They inspire us … even in death.
Anjy Roemelt said:
Grim, as for you and some other here: from now on I will print your comments to read them at leisure and reply in the same. This is getting to be a high-level discussion again.
Anjy Roemelt said:
Grim, you rely heavily on the movie-Aragorn and likewise Boromir. In that setting your analysis is convincing. I think it’s different in the book, where the Aragorn-Arwen theme is much more subtle. Aragorn and Boromir are both doing their duty – by their people, by their friends, by the future of the world. It’s just that they are both trying to do the same job and only one of them is entitled to do it: the king. In the line of story-telling Boromir HAD to be killed rather sooner than latter sp as not to arouse a conflict of loyalties ini the fellowship and in the reader.
Grim Helbeard said:
Anjy, Susan and company
Because this site is focussed on the film release of ‘The Hobbit’, and also because there are some substantial differences between the literary and film interpretations of the characters – I felt it necessary to choose one version to reflect on.
My impression from prior comments to this article is that Aragorn and Thorin are both afforded a great deal of leniency – solely because of their bloodlines. Where I agree that both characters are deserving of respect and admiration – it’s because of their morality and actions rather than their birthright.
History, and fiction, have both proven how undeserving royalty can be of their countrymen. I believe that a king should lead by example … compassion, bravery, loyalty … and then excel when, and where other men would falter.
Boromir may not have been born with the hereditary privileges that Aragorn is entitled to – but where as Aragorn refrained from his responsibilities to Gondor until his late eighties – Boromir was raised to defend and fight for his people since he was capable. He served without the expectations of a throne, but rather the mutual support and admiration of his fellow knights.
As to reader / viewer loyalties … Gandalf is the true leader of both the fellowship’s and Thorin’s quests. Only the elves seem to recognize his wisdom and authority without question. Aragorn’s respect for Gandalf’s council entitles him to more respect … than who his parents were.
Personally – kingdoms, thrones, wealth and power are meaningless without the integrity of the persons who exhibit them.
True kingship is earned. This is my final opinion.
Best wishes to you all.
Grim
mmgilchrist said:
True kingship is earned. This is my final opinion.
Indeed, although in what is effectively an Early Mediæval setting, that wasn’t always the case. A king might still have to fight for it, but generally bloodline was still (and was becoming increasingly) a key factor. (And in any story in a historical/pseudo-historical setting, we have to be able to set aside present-day values, to see it in its own terms. Otherwise, as per Monty Python and the Holy Grail, I’d be rooting for anarcho-syndicalist peasants…)
That is, to some extent, a problem I have with Aragorn’s messianic baggage: other people have been doing the job for decades while he’s been traipsing about with Elves and Ranger-ing, and he can then just barge in? I prefer Boromir to Aragorn: as you say, he’s carried out his responsibilities to his people (and tragically, that history of service is the weakness that makes the ring tempt him), as has Thorin.
In Thorin’s case, he pays what an Early Mediæval king would expect to be the final price of his position. When it came to the crunch, the king had to be ready to die for or with his people, leading them from the front, taking the same risks, axe or sword in hand.
Misty said:
Grim, I just love your thoughts on Boromir and Thorin. Actually, in LOTR Boromir was the character I was most attached to, for similar view as yours. He is not a villain, certainly not evil, he is simply HUMAN, with all the nobility and flaws going with it – the imperfection of mankind (which exists even without the corruption of any ring, not to mention when such a great evil power is trying to corrupt you).
As for Thorin and love, I have read an interesting interview – I think it was a Q&A with Richard Armitage – at the end of which he was asked what he would ask from Tolkien in relation to Thorin if he could and he said he would ask who the love of Thorin’s life was because he did imagine that there might have been someone (and Thorin even bore the burdens of a lost love beside all the known ones) and felt that Thorin sacrificed his life and given up everything for his people just as you said. And then it is not only Aragorn and Arwen (though there is no proof that Thorin ever had a love). But Richard’s view is very close to me as I have always strongly believed that Thorin has another side, a not so harsh, a more gentle one as well.
retrowarbird said:
Aragorn’s contemplative nature and humility are aspirational for sure, but I merit him personally and hardly because of his impressive lineage. He didn’t inherit his personality, he got it by living a hard life and never losing hope. His ancestors absolutely fell prey to pride and greed and lust for power. Growing up a pauper, living like a tramp and learning your ancestor’s failings in an extensive library like Rivendell has to give you a unique outlook.
D.J. said:
Good points.
Anjy Roemelt said:
I have just come back from the theatre and I think I noticed that the soundtrack-theme when Thorin is defeated by Azog in the “frying pan” is the same as when Boromir is shot by Lurz. Anyone else noticed that?
D.J. said:
Interesting. Will have to re-watch to see this.
Ewelina said:
Ah, so you’ve been reading my thoughts again, DJ! Yes, I agree with your fantastic essay!! For me, Thorin is about 70% of Boromir and 30% of Aragorn. I never liked Boromir in the book but I loved him in the film and it’s the same with Thorin – PJ’s interpretation eclipses the image from the book, at least for me, because I prefer high and noble stakes – like a kingdom – instead of purely private and down-to-earth affairs like getting back some long-lost gold.
* spoilers ahead *
Thorin’s a leader for leaderless people, he’s responsible for his actions – even if his heritage and duties are sometimes too heavy to bare, he’s honest and yet dares to desire, even though he understands that he shouldn’t. He makes us feel sympathy and respect, anger and distaste, he fulfils the role that is expected of him and yet can still act emotionally, not reasonably, and often out of character that others see in him. He’s a king to his people, but also a brother in arms (do you remember Boromir’s speech to his men in Osgiliath? the similarities just add up!).
Finally, he rises, he falls and he finds his redemption. And by that he teaches us one of the most important lessons of all: that greatness can be achieved not only by being pure, noble, selfless and courageous (like Aragorn) but also by fighting the darkness in your soul, overwhelming your weaknesses and facing your deepest fears.
Few of us will ever be considered great by Aragorn’s standards but many can take heart and follow Thorin’s path of greatness, which is more down-to-earth, less visible and probably will never be considered much more than a comma in the Great Book of History. But I feel that I could do it, so that it what I choose
Anjy Roemelt said:
Totally agree there. Very wise words. Still, I’m glad if someone like Aragorn is around now and again, natural or supernatural.
Misty said:
Ewelina, I could not agree more with your thoughts on Thorin. I especially love your words “greatness can be achieved not only by being pure, noble, selfless and courageous (like Aragorn) but also by fighting the darkness in your soul, overwhelming your weaknesses and facing your deepest fears”. I believe the latter ones demand an even harder fight and it is a much greater accomplishment to achieve them than to possess the former ones (not to mention that Thorin was also noble and courageous).
So I would take the risk of challenge to take it this far: Thorin is a king, he is the one who has to make the decisions (not just one or two but a lot of them and always) and the others only follow. Yet, ‘king’ is a title, but primarily he is a person like you or me. Are there any persons who never make mistakes? If you look at it from this aspect and if your answer is no – which I suppose it is – then how can Thorin be criticized for making mistakes in his decisions or deeds?
mmgilchrist said:
I think the Aragorn type is simply too perfect to be believable even in a fantasy novel; the same was true of book-Faramir.
Mohamed Ghita said:
Hi, Ewelina Yes, i agree with you, facing one’s darkness is very tough and brave..that’s the main reason i feel i can relate to Thorin!
Whitney said:
I have thoroughly been enjoying reading your essays over the past few days after discovering this site. Thank you not only for encouraging such fascinating discussions on the characters of the Heirs of Durin, but for compiling other resources regarding them, and the film, in one place.
After seeing the film, I have recently re-read the Hobbit and have to admit much of the end greatly disturbed me especially that now I am much more attached to Thorin. One thing that you have touched on here, and I would like to see more discussion on, is the betrayal of Bilbo by using the Arkenstone against Thorin. The events which unfolded after Bilbo hands over the Arkenstone and then reveals this to Thorin obviously incurs his wrath, further angering him and then leading ultimately to the battle in which he meets his end. It seems that Bilbo’s motivation was more selfish in trying to end the siege and further his own purpose, which was to once again return to his beloved armchair. It is true that he may have also been trying to prevent the dragon-sickness he saw was beginning to overcome Thorin and stem the tide of greed that would threaten to corrupt him. But I’m not so sure that Hobbits are so intentionally noble by trying to shape events in Middle Earth, it would seem to me that Tolkien intended them to be “accidental” heroes by acting upon instincts. Thus, although Bilbo may have been doing the “right” thing, I can’t help but think that his conscious intentions were more selfish. That definitely makes me feel more prejudiced against him especially as I feel his actions led to Thorin’s death and denial of his lifelong purpose: to reclaim the title of King Under the Mountain.
This also leads me to the question of whether Thorin was really overcome with simple greed and felt the inherited predisposition to dragon-sickness, or was there something more complex underlying his behavior? Aside from these things, there was more, as has been mentioned previously, that tied him to the Arkenstone. This was a symbol of his rightful title, much like a crown is also a symbolic object of kings. I can’t imagine Thorin’s frustration as he has finally entered the mountain and is beginning to realize his dream and the dream of his people. The dragon has been defeated, they have only just begun to take back Erebor .. yet it seems his purpose cannot be quite fulfilled until he finds the Arkenstone, the symbol of his identity as king. To add to the urgency of the situation, forces of Elves and men are coming to his door to threaten his kingdom (at least in his mind it is perceived as a threat). This adds to the motivation that he claim the Arkenstone, and with the possession of that object fully realize his birthright as king and secure the kingdom of Erebor for the dwarves.
How could Bilbo have spent all this time with the dwarves and Thorin and not seen the importance of all this? Surely he would have recognized the attachment that Thorin had to the Arkenstone as not simply one of lust for a beautiful object. I find it despicable that Bilbo can claim friendship with Thorin yet become the one who stands between him and his throne as well as the fulfillment of their quest: a quest that Bilbo has claimed loyalty and devotion to. The fact that his actions played a part in the death of his friend should surely lead to some doubt and guilt on Bilbo’s part. Perhaps there was no other way it could have gone down, maybe Bilbo had to withhold the Arkenstone from Thorin or the dragon-sickness would have overtaken him and all would have been lost. But I just can’t help but ask the what ifs. It leads me to questions of fate, choice, and the way life unfolds.
Thanks again for creating a place for such discussions. Perhaps I am just feeling too much sympathy with Thorin’s cause and too much of a grudge against Hobbits, but I do feel that this deserves more discussion.
Anjy Roemelt said:
Why, Bilbo’s theft of the Arkenstone did not start the battle. The goblins did that. Bilbo tried to prevent the dwarves, elves and men from fighting and to achieve THAT goal the Arkenstone was indeed the ideal tool. (We did discuss this, perchance, in another thread on this site, I THINK it’s the one about Thorin going from villain to hero, look at the right side under the picture of Thorin and Bilbo), because he could manipulate Thorin with it. Everybody else was not as inclined to do battle at all. I have always thought that Bilbo was some kind of natural pacifist. He didn’t want to fight and he didn’t want others to fight, battles being, if possible, even more nasty uncomfortable things than adventures (and they certainly make you late – for dinner). He sure wasn’t noble or just altruistic enough to think about the effect on Thorin’s character, like some kind of therapy, he just wanted to avoid killing and he was “noble” enough to give up his own share in any profit for it.
What he didn’t understand at all was the significance of the Arkenstone. He correctly describes it as “the heart of Thorin”, but he doesn’t know about the bond between the dwarves and their craft. Dwarves not only collect treasures to sit upon them like dragons, they make things with them, beautiful things, things coveted by the other races, even the elves (see the case of the Nauglamir in the Silmarillion). Now, as anybody knows who has ever tried to create something, you give something of yourself into your work. The book doesn’t say if the Arkenstone was set somehow, it appears to be just a wonderful jewel, but usually precious stones when found don’t look really precious and have to be filed and cut, so, I think something in the order of craft had been done to the Arkenstone, too. It was proof and privy seal of the abilities of the dwarves. Furthermore, it was an heirloom of Thorin’s family, token of his grandfather’s kingship and – added to that – probably prone to inflame the dragon sickness. All these things Bilbo didn’t have a clue of. Hobbits do some crafting, too, but not with the passion of dwarves. They make things to make life easier and more pretty and, of course, more comfortable. Why put too much time into crafting if you can have a meal instead, or a pipe? Or do your garden? Dwarves are said (by Tolkien) to never have tilled the earth nor hunted for food. They were traders in the objects done by them. THEY would say: why grow your own beans when you can buy them and spend the time working on a piece of jewellery that will rival starshine? So, this really is a clash of cultures depicted in Bilbo’s theft of the Arkenstone, beside the fact that he really had no business picking it up and not telling even when Thorin had told everybody this one jewels was out of bounds. But I went on about that in the other thread and don’t want to make this too long.
Whitney said:
Anjy,
You are indeed right about the goblins. I apologize I was still somewhat addled this morning after waking up so early..
Thanks for redirecting me to the earlier discussion, I can see my comments on this matter are better directed there. I haven’t yet been able to read through all of the excellent essays and information on this site yet.
I can see by your earlier comments concerning the Hobbits however, that you seem to be of like mind in that they are not quite as morally commendable as Tolkien presents them. I was a little concerned after I posted that my description of Bilbo as “despicable” might be met with some resentment. So I’m glad to see someone else is also not overly impressed with their characters.
I have to admit I have personal experience with the attachment to gold and jewels, as I am a jeweler myself. That is, I don’t just work in sales but do repair, casting, and make custom jewelry. I also have a BFA and enjoy painting, drawing and all manner of creating. So I can empathize greatly with the emotional attachment that dwarves have to their hoards.
I hope to one day create something that rivals starshine.😉 And I too, will put my heart and soul into the work, as a dwarf would.
mmgilchrist said:
I agree with you. I think Bilbo is beneath contempt in what he does. I find Tolkien’s attitude towards Hobbits off-putting (he even identified with them personally). I write and paint. A lot of my family were stonemasons and sculptors, going back to the early 18C at least; others were smiths and tinsmiths. Dwarves are smiths and stonecarvers. It’s not ‘greed’ for craftsmen to feel a passionate attachment to their materials and their creations (I wonder what Michelangelo would have said about marble?!). I don’t think Tolkien himself really understands this, being too caught up in rather trite moralising.
Mohamed Ghita said:
I disagree with you..Bilbo was just trying to stop the war Thorin wanted to wage by his greed! Amd i like Tolkien’s description of Hobbits and i am affectionate of them like him too.. In case you didn’t know, most of Dale’s gold and treasures were stolen by Smaug and piled up in Erebor..so i consider Thorin’s refusal to hand it over to Bard (who is the rightful owner) theft and.just shows how greedy he became after the dragon sickness..they didn’t belong to him!
mmgilchrist said:
“In case I didn’t know”?! I’ve known these books for over 40 years!
Bilbo should have handed over the Arkenstone as soon as he found it. He didn’t even say he’d found it. It was not his to give away.
No, it’s not “theft” if – before you’ve really had chance to work out what is what or belongs to whom in the stores – you don’t co-operate with someone who turns up with an army making demands with menaces. The treasure needed to be sorted and inventoried to work out what/how much came from where. Laketown/Dale needed practical help, such as Dwarven building skills, not gold – people can’t eat gold.
I think ‘dragon-sickness’ is an authorial cop-out, and have never been convinced by it as a plot device.
norma said:
Wanting to stop the war came later, when he first took the Arkenstone it was for its beauty. Later he longed to join in the merrymaking in the camp – Understandable I guess because he was used to green open spaces in the Shire not cooped up inside halls of stone.
Next we’ll be blaming Thorin for Smaug’s thieving habit.
norma said:
I wonder if it was really greed. After all his share was the same as the others. In all stories (I don’t claim to have read every story ever written) fiction and nonfiction, the leader, the planner, the one with the idea or by whatever title you call them always claim a bigger percentage. Thorin was not only the leader he was the King – he could have claimed a bigger share. Maybe it was rebelliousness (I don’t know whether it is correct to use that word but at the moment I just cannot think of another) -you know like: they wnat to force me? I’ll show them. When Roac first came to inform him that Smaug was dead, the bird told him that many were eager for a share of the wealth and “Already a host of the elves is on the way, ….” Reasoning and gentle persuasion would have worked better as with most people and in most situation. Just my opinion..:)
mmgilchrist said:
Yes. I think, quite simply, making demands with the threat of violence (a whole army against 13 Dwarves? – Mind, that’s probably his kind of odds!) isn’t the way to deal with someone like Thorin. It’s his kingdom, that he’s waited well over 100 years to reclaim. it puts him on the defensive. And the fact it’s bloody Elves…!!!!
D.J. said:
I agree with your thoughts on Bilbo. Just wrote out a long response to this, browser stumbled when trying to post it, and now it is lost. No time to retype. Maybe later.
mmgilchrist said:
Yes, there is definitely a culture-clash. It’s one of the things that makes Hobbits my least favourite of the ‘good guy’ species in Middle-Earth. Tolkien was far more positive about that kind of small (or large) ‘c’ conservative ‘Little Englander’/NIMBY parochial mentality that I am – all the ‘cricket on the village green/honey still for tea ‘sort of thing. I can see the appeal if you’ve been through the WW1 trenches, but… I know that the Shire is far too ‘Home Counties’ twee rural idyll for this Scots-Yorkshirewoman to be attracted by it.
It’s also significant that Bilbo just pocketed Gollum’s ring (which has no great significance for him or us at this narrative point). Is Gandalf’s characterisation of him as a burglar not so far off the mark? He sees something shiny, which isn’t his, and pinches it, just as he will do with the Arkenstone, compounded further with what is, to be blunt, personal betrayal. Too high a regard for honour may get you killed, but this is simply dishonourable behaviour. Why didn’t he admit he had it beforehand and hand it over? As you say, he’s blind to what it means symbolically.
norma said:
I have been following this discussion and there are some “things” i need to get off my chest. First, Bilbo first took the Arkenstone because he was captivated by its beauty. Thorin had discribed it. Even when he heard Thorin asking the others to look for it in every corner he did not reveal that he had found it. It was not fair of him to keep it even if he was willing to give up his 1/14 share. What if everything went well; Thorin gave a share to Bard for, ok, killing the dragon, rebuilding Lake Town. The Elvenking? Compensation for disturbing his people at their feasts? So after that when dividing the remainder of the treasure, would Bilbo give up his share and ask that he be allowed to keep the Arkenstone instead? We know that Thorin would never allowed it but I would think more kindly of Bilbo if he did that. He knew the attachment Thorin had to the Arkenstone. When he handed it to Bard he said it was “the heart of Thorin”. Would you give someone’s heart to others without his permission? And Gandalf praising Bilbo! Like a parent praising its kid for stealing another’s property. In some small ways we have had experience of being “disappointed” by close/best friends. I can imagine how Thorin must have felt knowing Bilbo had betrayed him and seeing the thing he valued most in the hands of another not even his own people. It breaks my heart that Thorin did not even get to touch it before he died.
Secondly, when the Elvenking knew that Smaug was dead he set out for the Mountain with his army, to carry off the treasure i’m sure, definately not to save or recapture the dwarves. He detoured when he met Bard’s messengers asking for his help.
Thirdly, Bard avoided answering Thorin’s question: “It is in my mind to ask what share of their inheritance you would have paid to our kindred, had you found the hoard unguarded and us slain.”
mmgilchrist said:
A very good post. I do think that Bilbo’s behaviour is reprehensible – it upset me even as a child, and I’m rather concerned that the films are being loaded very heavily in his favour, to let him off the hook.
Re: the army turning up: my suspicion is they may have intended to finish off any survivors. Otherwise, why take an army? Why not just civilians with baggage carts?
And your third point certainly stands.
norma said:
Thank you.
Yeah, like the scenes with the trolls and Azog (very inefficient orcs and wargs)
mmgilchrist said:
I wonder if they’re going to let us see Bilbo behave reprehensibly – because he does. We haven’t seen him pocket the Arkenstone and choose not to hand it over. Are they just going to blame it on the Ring?
D.J. said:
*spoilers* In DOS Bilbo can already be excused for withholding the Arkenstone from Thorin because of what Smaug tells him regarding the stone causing madness in Thror, and how Smaug would enjoy seeing the same happen to Thorin. These are massive changes from the book, with what I’m guessing is for the express purpose of making Bilbo’s actions much less reprehensible. Here he will keep it from Thorin to save him from himself, not because he had any desire for it initially.
mmgilchrist said:
I have seen the film, but hadn’t picked up on that line. I am deeply annoyed if that is the case. It looks to me as if poor old Thorin is going to be pretty besmirched in Part 3…
D.J. said:
I think they will make it very plain Thorin is “in the wrong”. Richard Armitage once said that Dwalin was the most loyal, and the last to turn away from him, *meaning* his whole company sides against him at some point, unlike the book.
mmgilchrist said:
I am extremely unhappy about the direction they’re taking this, then… Safe to say, I am not going with this in fic.
saraleee said:
This is a wonderful essay, DJ, and I can see that it’s sparked some terrific discussion. All the comments have been fascinating. First, about the gif of Thorin turning away: I thought Thorin’s expression showed dismay and despair at his grandfather’s lust for gold, and a realization that he too could fall prey to the sickness. But it also looked to me like the scene in North and South, where Mrs. Hale says that Northerners are all about money and smoke. Then she backs away, and the darkness covers her. So there’s a sense of doom befalling the characters who slip into darkness that way.
Now, about Boromir and Thorin: I think their downfall is rooted in their grasping for power. Like Saruman, they believe that it takes superior power to defeat their enemies and to achieve their goals. So however noble their goals might be to start out with, their success is undermined by the means by which they seek to achieve them.
Little things, modest things, like hobbits and kindness and good food and good cheer, are ignored by all three. And that’s why they ultimately fail. At least at the very end, Boromir and Thorin figure it out — or at least Thorin does.
The idea that Aragorn is saved because he has love in his life, and because he is loved by Arwen, is also a good point. Love, and kindness, and simplicity seem to be the values that Tolkien wanted to teach through his work.
Anjy Roemelt said:
I don’t think that Saruman, Boromir and Thorin can be described as equally striving for power. They are three different races and three different cases. Saruman, as an Istari, really should have known better (I’m all with Tree-beard in this). he DID know better. His temptation was directlly linked with the Ring and the Ring was made by Sauron for domination over everything and everyone and thus was linked with Sauron’s true lord, Morgoth. Saruman tried for the highest goal available within the boundaries of the world – and failed.
Boromir was also, very man-like (and I don’t mean male), grasping for power, but nor over all the world but “just” over the south of Eriador – until the Ring came his way. Still, as long as he was alive he did not fully come under the Ring’s controll as to desire the same power Saruman did. he still coveted the Ring to defend Gondor, overthrow Mordor and become the mightiest realm in Eriador. If he would have stopped at that had he been able to take the Ring is doubtful.
Thorin didn’t want to rule anyone but his own kingdom at all. Dwarves don’t try to dominate other races, they want to do trade with them. And they want to have their own kingdom and defend it. While men – and Istari in Saruman’s case – try to expand their domination, dwarves want to defend and conserve it. What is theirs, is theirs and they’ll not willingly give it up, but they don’t steel.
I would say that the wish to control others is an element of the lust for power totally absent in Thorin’s case, present in Boromir and overpowering in Saruman, and it’s not only a difference in quantity but in quality.
mmgilchrist said:
It’s also pointed out in the LotR Appendices that Dwarves are constitutionally immune to Sauron’s influence. The only effect the rings of power have on them is just to heighten their love of gold. It makes me wonder why a Dwarf wasn’t given the job of destroying the One Ring!
But then I do disagree strongly with a lot of Tolkien’s underlying values (especially after reading a biography of him), which made him invent and idolise Hobbits (with whom he identified strongly). He’s not someone whose world-view I share, and indeed I would have argued with strenuously.
Christine said:
This is indeed very thoroughly developed and written, hitiing just about every conceivable nail I could think of, squarely on it’s head! Often wondering if Tolkien’s message was just that in its simplicity, Enjoy the simple things in life, because war is so very terrible. The catharsis we feel at the loss of those we have come to love is so unbearable, especially if we feel there might have been a way to prevent that! We of course wish we were back in time to decide otherwise than to go to forward, now suffering the unbearable losses of those we love. However, like William Shakespere, Tolkien knows that the only way to make people really feel in their hearts and realize this, is to allow them to develop a real affection for the characters. (Much like the king and his favorite daughter, Cordilia in King Lear) Only by allowing for this will the reader finally feel the devasting catharsis needed to make his point. I once heard a very wise man say, “Things, objects, should never be more important than the feelings and the hearts of those we love!” That really is the message! For Frodo and the fellowship, it was of course about destroying the ring, not keeping it. I’m sure Boromir would have undoubtably met his end through the ring, even if he had obtained it from Frodo. Thorin’s passion to regain the Arkenstone placed any and all above any other reasoning, and of course, in hindsight, when it is too late and he knows he is dying, he finally sees this. It will be a very difficult sequence of scenes to watch, but I do hope that message of what is truly important will come across to everyone viewing them! A very nice comparison DJ! Thank you for sharing it!
Anjy Roemelt said:
I don’t believe Tolkien consciously had this message in mind when he wrote The HObbit, at least. It was meant as a bed-time story for his children and should be more exciting and entertaining than teaching. But he was, of course, a man of strong moral and ethics and several times said that his convictions – and faith – come into his stories and, indeed, are an essential part of it. I would be interesting now to compare different readers’s views on that. Where does Tolkien’s believes come in and how? Christine, you think it’s to value human relationships more than things and did I detect even a hint at his experiences in WW I in your argument? I would say, especially in The Lord of the Rings, the conviction that you must try to do your duty by your neighbours and by God is inherent to the story. Aragorn and Frodo are the most prominent examples for that, but also Gandalf, who might have prefered to stay in Valinor after the encounter with the Balrog😉, they just go on because they have have been called to. If they can’t do it, no-one can, it’s THEIR duty, that that of anyone else. So, we all of us are called to do something, sometimes little things, insignificant things which well never make us hit the one-million-mark on youtube, but they are still ours to do them.
Grim Helbeard said:
Based on the responses to this article – I’m convinced that the ‘Arkenstone’ is as corrupting as Sauron’s ring.
Royal entitlement – hereditary wealth – inherited honor … in response to “agreeing to disagree” … never.
Corruption is corruption. Period.
Thank you Saralee for acknowledging the reasons worth living for.
They aren’t pretty baubles and titles.
I hope that none of you need lose what’s important to fully appreciate their value.
Sorry, I just can’t relate to some of you as well as I thought.
We must have been raised with different values.
Our life experiences are certainly too different.
Signing off … Grim
Anjy Roemelt said:
The Arkenstione can’t be “as corrupting as Sauron’s Ring” because it isn’t Sauron’s. The Ring was made with evio intent and the sole purpose of its making was to corrupt. The Arkenstone is a jewel, “made” by nature. The evil it arises in the hearts of men, elves and dwarves comes from THEM, not from the stone. Corruption is corruption, yes, and its source is within US not within the things – in real world. Tolkien, who knew about original sin, did keep that in mind even when he invented the Ring. It corrupts according to the measure of its bearer, it feeds upon our intents, but inevitably bends them to evil. It would be interesting to ask what role free will can play in dealing with the Ring.
As for the rest of your comment – what’s wrong? Is it necessary to be of one mind to a very high degree on a site like this? Some postings I’ve read here make me clawing the walls with frustration, other brighten my day. That’s life.
Grim Helbeard said:
Anjy,
Sorry. You’re right – I allowed old scars, and thin skin to compromise an open minded discussion. Wizards being quick to anger … and all that.
After responding to Larry’s (Gryphonking) submission of information concerning Mina’s involvement in the Great Eagles development – I realized that I’ve spent so much time pursuing environmental and animal rescue causes – that I’ve become less tolerant of conflicts with other humans. Or maybe it’s because of other humans.
Anyway, I’m not so old or stubborn to refrain from admitting that I was wrong. The problem with evolving into an idealist – is that your perspectives and relationships devolve into the less than ideal.
I’m apparently on the path to a reclusive life in the vicinity of Rhosgobel. I trust that Radagast and I will get along well … provided his bunnies don’t eat the contents of my garden. I’ll make more of an effort not to treat others as if they are minions of the Necromancer. But I’m still going to keep my eyes open for giant spiders.
I did warn you that I am eccentric. And no … I haven’t been eating Radagast’s mushrooms. My dog did.
Grim
Servetus said:
Thanks for this, which I enjoyed reading and which I’ll add to my growing stock of impressions about Thorin. I have not enough background to say anything much about most of it, especially the books, but I wanted to say that I felt, despite his heroic moments, that the virtue of the Thorin in the film is not unalloyed — that is, yes, he acts heroically, but his mien is arrogant, often clueless or closed off, he refuses to hear information that he will need, and above all, he’s thick and hard to work with. I also assume from reading Armitage’s remarks that he will become less likeable, but I don’t think he’s an intensely likeable character in this film in any way. As a couple of my friends have been saying, he’s not very “relatable.”
Anjy Roemelt said:
Ah, I love to read something from a different pespective for a change, I really do. You are right, Thorin isn’t Prince Charming reloaded at all and most of us would hate to have him for a boss. The only thing I can say in his defence – again – is that he carries the responsibility for all his people, so he has to be right. Period. They rely on him to be right. Having to be right does something to people, they start to believe in it. The book states it very simply right at the beginning. When the dwarves do the dish-washing Gandalf and Thorin take a repose, because Thorin is “far too important” to do the dish-washing.
The film-Thorin is made likeable first by good looks,of course, and then by this way he has of looking (pun intended), the way he casts down his eyes when he knows he IS wrong, after all. That does something to peope, too. And, of course, it adds to the character. Thorin has a stiff neck and a high opinion of himself, but he is not a fool. He does accept it when Gandalf tells him Bilbo did have the best idea to handle the trolls, he does give the map to Elrond and most of all. he does acknowledge what Bilbo risked for him. Even if Armitage hints the character will turn less likeable in the coming movies I’m quite sure these aspects from the first will not be burried with it. At the very least we will get to see a heart-rending repentance when he dies.
D.J. said:
That is true that when it comes to Bilbo in the film he is an absolute jerk until the last scene. He saves him on the cliff, but it is almost done spitefully. His manners are a little better in the original story (they may only be polite on the surface, but at least he tries to offer the service of his entire lineage from time to time). What I’ve noticed is that most people forgive the film version of Thorin for being all the things you mentioned, and we can probably guess why. A handsome face and a daring attitude goes a long way to obscure faults unless they are really awful. But I am glad those flaws are there for us to enjoy
Anjy Roemelt said:
After all, if he is the King under the Mounatin (even if in waiting) he IS the King under the Mountain. What merit is there in following your king because he’s such a nice guy?
Servetus said:
Yeah — to use a different example, the only thing that explains the ongoing problems in the Wars of the Roses despite the utter lack of charisma of Henry VI is the fact that people had loyalty to a notion of kingship apart from charisma.
I want to make clear that I’m not criticizing Thorin. He’s the character I most identify with in the film, and partially because of some of these qualities, which I recognize in myself.
Anjy Roemelt said:
Like what?
Servetus said:
Being unable to separate myself from the past; grudgeholding; Besserwisserei. To name a few.
Anjy Roemelt said:
Sounds like you’re a real darling. I guess if I were to detect myself in a dwarf it’d be Ori. But he would follow Thorin down the throat of a dragon – and so would I.
Tammy J Rizzo said:
Besserwisserei, yeah. He sure does come across as ‘I know better than you’ at times, doesn’t he?
Tammy J Rizzo said:
I think movie-Thorin gets more leniency for his arrogance and attitude not because he’s sex-on-a-stick (though he is that), but because he shows us more nobility and good sense than we see in book-Thorin, instead of only his arrogance and attitude. I’ve commented elsewhere on this site about how movie-Thorin is a much more rounded and three-dimensional character than book-Thorin is ever shown to be. We see more warmth from movie-Thorin than we see in book-Thorin, even if it is mostly to his dwarves, and more humility in working as a plain blacksmith for the sake of his people, that we never see within the covers of the book. This, I feel, is what earns movie-Thorin the pass, not how attractive he is (though he is that).
Anjy Roemelt said:
Accurate analysis, Tammy, though Id like to stand up for book-Thorin a bit. You remember the scene with the trolls, don’t you? Book-Thorin comes last, is warned by Bilbo that the trolls are waiting for him to be put into a sack and says “Oh, are they?” Here’s our “besserwissing” (know-it-all) dwarf in full swing. But after he ends up in a sack like all the others and is rescued by Gandalf, the dialogue goes much like in the film “Where did you got? What made you come back” and the chapter ends with a simple “Thank you”, said Thorin. I think here’s a glimpse of the hint at humility movie-Thorin shows sometimes, a link between the two, maybe.
Grim Helbeard said:
Tammy,
A ‘plain’ blacksmith? – good, honest and admirable work it is … and a true art form in the hands of the dwarves. … grumble … grumble
Thorin’s book version wouldn’t have been received well by the general viewers. For that matter, PJ has smoothed over other character portrayals that I anticipated would differ. I expected a more somber Radagast – having distanced himself from the dramas of mankind in favor of the more innocent forest fauna. Likewise, the dwarves in Thorin’s party are a bit jovial by comparison to the evolved portrayal of dwarves in contemporary fiction. I prefer my dwarves dark, moody, obstinate and ready for a fight at all times.
Anjy did remind me that Tolkien’s intention for ‘The Hobbit’ was a children’s story – so I can understand why PJ tailored the characters to be more ‘likable’ for the majority. Hence, the decision to cast Richard Armitage – without a proper dwarven beard, or the rougher, caricatured features we see in other dwarves during the Erebor scenes. Undoubtedly, a ruse to appease the female fans.
Don’t misinterpret my reviews – I’m sold on Richard Armitage as Thorin after seeing the film. The Weta hardcover of ‘An Unexpected Journey – Chronicles’ is an exceptional visual evolution of the various character developments. There are undoubtedly versions of Thorin’s company that would have been more impressive than those decided on, but the decision was made to create more distinctive character traits for easier viewer recognition.
Despite Bombur’s lack of an actual beard – in favor of braided muttonchops, and Balin’s missing mustaches ( a shaving accident? ) – the characters have a way of growing on you – the more often you view the film. Balin ( the younger, and the elder ) is undoubtedly my favored member of Thorin’s company. A formidable, but thoughtful, mentor to guide Thorin’s ascension to Erebor’s throne.
With that said – and I know that I deviated far from the point – it was a pleasure hearing a new perspective. Good luck with those upcoming novels.
Grim
Anjy Roemelt said:
Jaaah, the ´Chronicles´ is a treasure of a book. I remember reading that
Balin lost his moustache because he has to do a lot of communication which include eyes twinkling and lips smiling. the moustache would have been too distracting.
Grim Helbeard said:
The renderings of Thror, Thrain, Thorin, Dwalin and Balin alone are worth the purchase of ‘Chronicles’. The second book from Weta is available to pre-order from Amazon. There should be more race and cultural development of the dwarves. I’m anxious to see how much of Erebor will be illustrated. I’d love to see a Reeves map to compliment the concept art with a detailed structural drawing of the mountain kingdom’s interior plans.That would make the second book worth waiting for.
Grim
mmgilchrist said:
Ah, but which book? The film is also using the LotR Appendices and the Unfinished Tales, which were written for a more adult readership. It’s a pity Tolkien didn’t rewrite The Hobbit entirely in a more grown-up fashion to fit with the rest of the LotR, but we can see the direction in which he was taking it. I see the published children’s-book Hobbit almost as a rough draft for what was never written.
Anjy Roemelt said:
Grim was talking about the second book of the “Chronicles”. As for The Hobbit Tolkien himself admitted that he didn’t much approve of it on hindsight. It really seems to have been rather a bedside story for his children using some motifs of his mytholgy that was growing silently in the background. He later tried to make the hints used in The Hobbit match with first The Lord of the Rings and later with the called-for Appendices (he never saw the Silmarilion in print). I, myself, am glad The HObbit stayed the way it is. ImhO it puts something like a restraining bridle on the overflowing imagination of Tolkien-scholars by showing the story had a very down-to-earth every-day purpose, too, in the beginning: entertain the off-spring who stubbornly refuses to go to bed in the evening when their parents are tired and want to get back to their cosy studies and write some mythology.
D.J. said:
Even when he attempted a rewrite of the Hobbit in the 1960s he made few changes in the tone or details. Basically it was the same, (it only goes part way into the story and then stops). He really did not have it in his heart to do away with the original feeling despite writing works after it which contradict the original images he gave us of the dwarves as rather incompetent bumblers.
Tammy J Rizzo said:
Well, obviously, ‘book-Thorin’ would have to be the originally-published ‘The Hobbit’ book-Thorin, since that was the one I was talking about. ;-> I’m sorry if I hadn’t made that more clear.
Pingback: Anonymous
Anonimous1 said:
Going back to the Thorin-Boromir topic,i actually never saw Boromir as evil.Flawed?You bet.An proud arse?Yep.But just try to see things his way.Since childhood he was raised to defend Gondor,yet he was starting to see that the war was deep-down hopeless.Then,following an prophetical dream,he finds what (for him) is the only thing that can save Gondor.Most people,put in his situation,would have made the same mistakes,and possibly worst ones.His greatest flaw was that he had trouble trusting the judgement of others,and always placed Gondor’s need ahead of everithing.Actually,i think that the only big difference he had from Faramir was that Faramir was more humble,and had an more overall view of things.Just to remember a few things,he took the journey to Imladris to himself because he wanted to keep his brother safe.Does that sounds like the action of an petty,greedy and selfish man?And about his initial despise for Aragorn,as far as he knew he was an wildman with royal blood,and the last kings of gondor caused the decay of the realm due to their over-bearing pride and bullheadness(kinda like Boromir,but still…)Actually,he remembers Earnur a lot (he was Gondor’s last king).
Anjy Roemelt said:
I’m not quite sure if Boromir claimed the quest for the dream of Imlardris for himself because of concern for Faramir’s safety or because he wouldn’t bear it that his little brother was send a prophetic dream more often than he was. To me it always seemd that he just couldn’t accept it that “the fates” favored Faramir over him in that case, they just had to have made a mistake in not sending that dream to him, hand#t they?😉
Anonimous1 said:
Sorry posted my last comment by mistake (Youre…) Youre wrong Boromir got the dream too,and remember when Faramir and Éomer heard of his death…A man who’s death is mourned even by a foreigner who barely knew him can’t be that bad…In my opinion,he was,indeed,an dark jewel
Anonimous1 said:
His main flaw was that he would do literally anithing to save Gondor,and when the ring showed up…That was too much for the poor sod.
Anjy Roemelt said:
I´m not “wrong”😉, read my posting. Faramir had the dream more often than Boromir who had it but once. so, obviously, he was fate´s first choice. Boromir took the journey upon himself because it was “full of doubt and danger” which might indicate concern for his brother as well as thinking Faramir just wouldn´t be up to it. again we must be careful to distinguish Between what is told in the books, what is shown in the movies and what pictures and emotions we create ourselves. book-Boromir is proud and doubtful of Aragorn but not as dismissive as film-Boromir of Aragorn´s claim. also, we don´t know much about the relationship between the brothers from the books while the film in the extended version clearly depicts how Denethor favors Boromir and he, in turn, tries to defend his brother. book-Faramir says he loved his brother dearly but knew him well. Boromir wanted Gondor to be a kingdom and his family, not necessarily himself, I´d say,the king(ship). indeed, the ring was “too much” for him. the mighty heirloom Faramir guessed at. I´m very unhappy with film-Faramir. he is every bit the kid-brother, always in Boromir´s shadow, a paler and humbler version of him but not, as the book says, the one in which the blood of Numenor “runs nearly true”. In the book Faramir represents what Numenor was meant to be and once had been: the race of men in full glory and valour. so does Denethor, btw, according to Tolkien, but not Boromir. as hard as it may sound, it was him who wasn´t up to the task.
norma said:
In Appendix A, LOTR regarding the two brothers: “Yet between the two brothers there was great love, and had been since childhood, when Boromir was the helper and protector of Faramir. No jealousy or rivalry had arisen between them since, for their father’s favour or for the praise of men……”
Anonimous1 said:
I dont disagree with that.Faramir was indeed both a better man and more powerfull than Boromir,what i meant is that i never saw Boromir as evil,or anithing.I’d say that he was a good man,but he was raised to follow his father’s path,and that means putting Gondor’s needs ahead of everithing.When he saw the ring…Well,i’d say he tryed to resist the temptation,but the plan of the council both sounded suicidal and that went against all he was raised to believe in.At some point,he just snapped.But still,he regreted it and died defending Merry and Pippin to the death.Although that was an useless effort in the end,he had an death in battle that any Northman or Dunedain would envy.I’d say that in the end,he more than made up for his mistakes.
Anjy Roemelt said:
You are absolutely right in stating that Boromir wasn’t evil. Saruman was evil. He was planning destruction in cold blood. Bormir’s blood rather was too hot and that’s imhO what made him second-in-charge to both Faramir and Aragorn. Boromir, as I am prone of saying, has blood in his veins, not brake-fluid. He might speak first and think after, or even act first and think after or not at all. Not always. If he had been just a reckless big mouth his father wouldn’t have trusted him with any responsibility. Denethor was no dotard. He had ruled Gondor succesfully for a long time. Just when he was brushed the wrong way, when pride and valour came in and a hint at a greatness Boromir admired but didn’t take part in, his passion might get the better of him. That probably made him a captain the younger recrutes loved better than the old veterans. And also a man who could lead others. Tolkien emphasizes the fact that both, Denethor and Faramir, noticed as suspicious that Boromir did not lead the fellowship of the Ring. It takes more to be a leader than a hot heart. The ability to distance yourself from your ambitions and analyse your own motives as cool as a cucumber is what both, Boromir and Thorin, lack. They’d rather sacrifice themselves – and those following them – than their ideals. Is this an evil trait of character? It may prove disastrous in a leader, as it does with Thorin. It may also prove to be the one thing that changes the balance of a battle to victory, someone who cares more for his ideals than his safety. A passionate heart is a double-edged sword. Leaders like Aragorn and Faramir can guarantee safety for their people better than captains and kings like Boromir and Thorin, but there may – just may – be situations when there is more to life than safety. Still, a leader has to think of his people, all his people -the weak, the aged, the very young – and decide for them.
Anonimous1 said:
True.For instance,i wouldn’t like to,by instance,live in a country ruled by King Theoden.If wasn’t by the ents,Rohan would be distroyed by Mordor’s norther army after the Battle of the Pellenor fields.The man was an capitain,and good at that.But he pretty much sucked at politics.Exept for the guarrisons of big cities and fortresses,he left Rohan umprotected.He migth have been what was needed for the war of the ring,but i wouldn’t like to be ruled by such a bullhead in regular times.
Misty said:
Great post! I believe Thorin and Boromir can be considered noble not only because they have made mistakes and gave up their lives in payment, but more for the fact that even if they had not made mistakes and did not have to pay for anything, still they would not have acted differently, still they would have risked and given their lives, because they were the kind and it was naturally in them.
Rana said:
GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!!
Seriously, though, very well written, and I have nothing to say. These are my favorite two characters of all of Middle Earth (the only one to stand beside them in honor in my mind is Turin Turambar). You hit the nail on the head about them both.
mmgilchrist said:
Yes… Both Boromir and Thorin (especially as brought to life so impressively in the films) have me wanting to go rushing in with the bandages and my surgeon-friend to save them…
norma said:
Oooh Turin is my favourite too, also his father Hurin but they both died too😦
Rana said:
True, but they were human, it had to happen somehow. And hey! Turin has just about the most heroically epic death of all time anyway!😀 Turin vs Glaurung! Now THAT I want to see on the big screen!
norma said:
I know but their story is the most tragic, even reading it was hard for me, to watch it on the big screen….? I will decide if and when someone makes the movie.
Anano said:
Tolkien was unnecessarily cruel and unfair to both of them😦