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dragons, essay, necromancer, one ring, rings of dwarves, rings of elves, rings of men, rings of power, saruman, sauron, thorin, thrain, tolkien
The Rings of Power
By Ori’s Quill
This is part two of the trilogy that ties in the Concerns of the White Council, with the power of the Great Rings, and in a future essay will connect the Heirs of Durin with the Lord of the Rings. Those who have not read the books will find this information vital in understanding what may happen in the The Desolation of Smaug and There and Back Again. Those who have read the books might benefit from a review of this information and find some facts intriguing. The essay will demonstrate how Tolkien’s writings are preserved in the movie versions, but again will point out discrepancies. There may be spoilers depending on how much you already know.
The Ring of Tolkien
The fall of 1937 was an important time for Professor Tolkien. Having just completed The Hobbit that spring, and the book ready for publication on the 21st of September, he had set in his head a second novel, about Hobbits, and had already begun the first chapter titled A Long Expected Party (this compliments the first chapter of The Hobbit titled An Unexpected Party). By December of that year, he had completed five different drafts of chapter one. Here we can see Tolkien struggle. He wanted a maturity to his writing, to incorporate the spectacular mythologies brewing in his head that he wrote as early as 1917 when recovering from trench fever and grief of the death of his best friends killed in battle in World War I. He thought of dragon sickness, of Bilbo longing for adventure. But he did not want to write another children’s novel. The story started, stopped, started, stopped, and by 1938 he had drafted seven chapters. Yet still, Tolkien had no sense of connection, of direction. He wrote “The sequel to The Hobbit has remained where it stopped. It has lost my favor, and I have no idea what to do with it.”
Then it came to him. In his scribbled outlines he wrote: “Bilbo’s ring proved to be the one ruling Ring – all others had come back to Mordor: but this one had been lost.” Humphrey Carpenter sums it up best:
“The one ruling ring that controlled all others; the ring that was the source and instrument of the power of Sauron, the Dark Lord of Mordor; the ring that must be carried by hobbits, or else the whole world will come under Sauron’s domination. Now everything fell into place, and the story was lifted from the ‘juvenile’ level of The Hobbit into the sphere of grand and heroic romance. There was even a name for it: when next he wrote about it to Allen & Unwin (his British publishing company), Tolkien referred to it as “The Lord of the Rings”.
The Power of the One
There is a great importance in understanding what the Ruling Ring of Power can do. It is crucial. For without such knowledge, one cannot understand the relationship between Thorin Oakenshield and The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. We are all familiar with the qualities of the One Ring. It is a Horcrux (I know, wrong story. But the term fits nicely here). Tolkien writes “he let a great part of his own former power pass into it”. It assured that Sauron could live for eternity through evil domination of others.
The One Ring was made by Sauron in the fires of Orodruin in the year 1600 of the Second Age. This location, so far east from Elves and Men, enabled Sauron to practice the darkest sorceries and fashion the Ruling Ring. Sauron was also a shape shifter. Through his sorcery he took up a new form, revealing the true nature of his evil self.
Because a part of Sauron lived inside the Ring, it is an active controller. It manipulated Isildur, later betraying and having him murdered. The manipulation of Isildur prevented the Ring from destruction at Mount Doom. This assured that Sauron could return. But the Ring made a critical mistake then by having Isildur murdered, for when it slipped off his hand, it slipped into obscurity for thousands of years and could not find a bearer to bring it back to its master. Never again would it take the life of the ring bearer.
It briefly ensnares Déagol and then Sméagol, driving him to murder and insanity. And for four hundred years, the Ring gets stuck in Gollum’s cave. Both in book and movie, the Ring abandons Gollum as he “twisted that nassty young squeaker” goblin. It realizes that Gollum won’t parcel it back to Sauron. It senses a new bearer, a bearer that will bring it closer to its master. That bearer is Bilbo, who just happens to be on the way to Mirkwood, home of Sauron as the Necromancer. The Ring chose Bilbo. It was intended, no accident, and contrary to the depiction in the Fellowship movie.
We then see Bilbo, using the Ring playfully to achieve his tasks. Consider this: Is the Ring using him? Did the Ring lure Bilbo to ask “What have I got in my pocket?” Bilbo was stammering for a riddle, “he scratched himself, he pinched himself; still he could not think of anything” and accidently brushes against the Ring in search for one. “What have I got in my pocket?” The question assured that Bilbo won the contest, though technically it was not a riddle that Bilbo asks.
As he tries to escape Gollum’s assault, the Ring slips onto Bilbo’s finger, thereby guaranteeing safe passage out of the cave. But an even bigger picture emerges. The Ring is on the way to its master waiting in the darkness of Mirkwood. The Ring seems to be controlling the outcome of events.
Fortunately, the plan is spoiled. Bilbo, Thorin, and Company get past the Necromancer, as we will see in the Desolation of Smaug. How they make it past is speculated at the end of the essay Concerns of the White Council. But they are able to continue their Quest to Erebor, though hindered by other events along the way.
A clever reader may ask, “Might Smaug be capable of devouring the Ring, like the lessor Rings of the Dwarves?” The answer is no. Tolkien writes in Fellowship: “It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragons left on earth in which old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black [see the essay Concerns of the White Council about him], who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself.” The Great Ring cannot be harmed by Smaug, which is a good thing, because such an outcome could never produce the great sequel The Lord of the Rings.
We all know that Bilbo returns to the Shire after the Quest (sorry if I spoiled the ending but it is implied in the title There and Back Again). Then the Ring slowly takes hold of him, to dominate. In Fellowship, Bilbo becomes “thin and stretched”, manic and agitated. He wants to roam, and has an obsession with the Ring. In the book, he describes himself trying to put it away, trying to forget about it, and then taking it back out again. He says it needs looking after. The Ring of Power seems to be controlling him. It has dominated his very thoughts, and is manipulating poor Bilbo.
Think back to the Long Expected Party. What if Bilbo never put the Ring on? Would Gollum have been lured to Mordor? Would then the Nazgûl not have been released? Would Orodruin have erupted? The very innocent action of startling stupid Hobbits of the Shire by disappearing set other actions in motion, thereby summoning the Nazgûl to bring the Ring back to its master. The Ring, it seems, is the controller.
Then finally we see Frodo, in his naiveté, take up the burden of ring-bearer (once again, did he make the choice, or did the Ring?) in the Council of Elrond. Is it chance, coincidence, or is the Ring summoning Frodo to take it to Mordor? For eventually Frodo succumbs. The Ring takes him, and had not Sam and Gollum altered the course of events, the Ring would have succeeded in returning to its master.
The Great Ring, the manipulator, the dominator, the chess player. For that is what the Great Ring is. It controls, moving our heroes in place like pawns to be slaughtered.
The Lesser Rings of Power
It might surprise fans who have not read the books that the lesser Rings of Power were made by Elves and not Sauron. The Silmarillion accounts the forging of the Rings of Power by the High Elves of Ost-in-Edhil, in Eregion under the supervision of Sauron who at that time was considered an ally and valued for his knowledge and smithing skills.
“They took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance. Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring.”
This somewhat contradicts the Fellowship movie, which depicts Sauron gifting the Rings to the Elves, the Dwarves, and Men.
The Nine, The Seven, The Three, The One and The One?
As fans of the movies and the books, we are all aware of the Nine Rings of Men, the Seven of the Dwarves, the Three of the Elves, and the One.
Few of us are aware that there is another Ring, dominated by the One. It is not Aragorn’s ring, known as the ring of Barahir, which he bore and is mentioned in the movie Two Towers and Appendix A of Fellowship.
It is a surprising yet obvious fact that the Ring in question was created in the Third Age and its bearer is Saruman. In reading the Council of Elrond in the Fellowship of the Ring, Gandalf explains his long disappearance and detainment. He rode to Orthanc to seek Saruman’s council. Gandalf says “I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stairs of Saruman…he wore a ring on his finger…” Saruman himself declares “For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman the Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colors.”
How can Saruman have a Ring of Power? He openly declares that he made the Ring himself, but how is this dominated by the One? The answer lies in the Palantír, one of the lost Seeing-stones, as read in Concerns of the White Council. This Palantír enables Sauron to control Saruman like a puppeteer
controlling a puppet. Saruman was a vested scholar in Ring lore, spending much time studying the history, myths and legends. This was his undoing. Sauron could easily persuade him to make a Ring and thereby be dominated. So Sauron is using Saruman as another avenue in obtaining the Great Ring. And if Saruman wants the Ring for himself, Sauron has other means of controlling him. In the book The Two Towers, when Sauron appears to Pippin in the Palantír he declares “Tell Saruman that this dainty (a hobbit) is not for him. I will send for it at once.” In other words, Saruman has no chance of obtaining the Ring. Sauron knows completely what Saruman is planning, and will send the Nazgûl to retrieve the Ring should he obtain it.
The Nine Rings of Men
Both the movies and Tolkien account for nine kings receiving the Rings of Power. After that time, Tolkien writes, there were many battles fought especially in the realm of Eriador. The Númenoreans, of the line of Aragorn, became divided and rebellions and upheavals were the zeitgeist of the times. That was when the race of Men was at its most low.
Tolkien gives a date of 2251 of the Second Age when Middle-earth is first plagued by the Nazgûl. Of the nine kings, slowly wariness took over and they succumbed not only to the domination of the Great Ring, but they remained undying. (This contradicts a scene we may see in the Desolation of Smaug, in which Gandalf and Radagast go to investigate the nine tombs of the High Fells. If you are undying, how can you have a tomb? See Concerns of the White Council.) Slowly the nine kings faded and became invisible permanently, and served Sauron forever. For over three thousand years, Sauron commanded the Nazgûl. Their actions were entirely based on his will and domination.
The Three Rings of the Elves
We know of the other Rings of Power the following facts: That each had their own precious or semi-precious gem attributed to them. While the Nine Rings of Men and the Seven Rings of the Dwarves are not described, we do have a description of the Three. There is Vilya, the Ring of Air, whose ring bearer was originally Gil-galad and then he passed the Ring to Elrond. The stone attributed to the Ring is a blue sapphire. The next, Nenya the Ring of Water, whose bearer is Galadriel, has a white diamond. Finally, there is Narya the Ring of Fire, with a red stone, perhaps a ruby. Its original bearer was Círdan, the Shipwright. Its final bearer is a bit of a
surprise for those not familiar to the books, especially The Silmarillion. For in that book it is mentioned that Mithrandir was the last to bear Narya. He bore the ring in secret and swore never to mention his bearing, but it explains why in the movie Gandalf sets sail with Frodo, Bilbo, Elrond, Galadriel (all ring bearers) and Celeborn (contradictory to Tolkien’s writing, for Celeborn remained in Middle-earth and settled in the southern woods and renamed them East Lórien) at the end of the movie Return of the King.
Of the Three, there is evidence of domination; though their bearers have a stronger resistance to the Ruling Ring. The reason for this was that Sauron never made the Three. They were forged to enable the Elves to heal and preserve. They were created by Celebrimbor in the realm of Eregion in the year 1590 of the Second Age. It would take Sauron another ten years to forge the One. By 1693, the three were hidden. In Fellowship, it is written “The Three, the fairest of all, the Elf-lords hid from him, and his hand never touched or sullied them.” The Silmarillion continues that as soon as Sauron put on the Great Ring, the Elves perceived his domination, and promptly removed their Rings from their fingers, thereby reducing the dominating power of the One.
In year two of the Third Age, when Isildur is murdered, and the Ring passed out of all knowledge, the three Rings of the Elves were temporarily released from its dominion. Elrond confirms this in the Council in Fellowship. This is why we see Galadriel actually wearing Nenya in the movie Fellowship. She is able to bear the Ring without Sauron’s oppression.
The Seven Rings of the Dwarves
Originally, Tolkien only created two lines of Dwarves, but later changed that in the 1966 revision of The Lord of the Rings. We lack a historical account of all of the seven founding fathers, but Tolkien names the lines as the Longbeards (Durin’s line), Firebeards, Broadbeams, Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks and Stonefoots. Each family line received one of the Seven. The Longbeards or Sigin-tarâg founded the Dwarf colonies of Gundabad and Khazad-dûm and later founded Erebor, as well as colonies in the Ered Mithrin and the Iron Hills. The Firebeards and the Broadbeams founded the colonies of Tumunzahar (Nogrod in Sind.) and
Gabilgathol (Belegost in Sind.) in the Ered Luin. The Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks and Stonefoots went north and east, and are no longer mentioned in any of Tolkien’s works.
Tolkien writes that Durin III was the first Dwarf to receive one of the Seven in the year 1500 of the Second Age. He was king of Khazad-dûm. His grandfather, Durin the Deathless (who eventually did die at a very ripe old age) was the first of the line of Durin, and founded the kingdom of Khazad-dûm. Durin III had forged a great friendship with the High Elf Celebrimbor, who made the Three Rings of the Elves. The Elves of Eregion, as the realm was known, and Khazad-dûm both prospered as a great trade network was created between the two.
A little trivia, if I may. Celebrimbor, for those who read the books, was also partially responsible for creation of the western door of Khazad-dûm, known as the Hollin gate. He drew the signs on the door, while Narvi the Dwarf carved them out using cirth ithil, moon runes. The seven stars above represent the seven lines of the Dwarves with the central star above the crown being Durin’s. The crown itself is a depiction of an image that Durin the Deathless saw when he gazed into Kheled-zâram (Mirror-mere) and saw on his head a crown flanked by the seven stars. Below that is the hammer and anvil, a symbol of the House of Durin. These are flanked by the trees of the High Elves and the large central star is the House of Fëanor, maker of the three silmarilli in the First Age. Celebrimbor was Fëanor’s grandson, like Durin III was Durin I’s grandson. Unlike the door of Erebor, which requires a key, the door of the Hollin gate needs none. You only need to speak ‘friend’ to enter.
It has been commented in both The Silmarillion and the Fellowship, that the Seven Rings of the Dwarves were either destroyed or taken by Sauron. How were they destroyed? By dragons, including Glaurung the Great (See Concerns of the White Council). Appendix B of Return of the King comments: “The Dwarves hid themselves in deep places, guarding their hoards, but then evil began to stir again and dragons reappeared, one by one, their ancient treasures were plundered and they became a wandering people.” A total of four Rings were consumed by Dragons. The Silmarillion states “soon he (Sauron) will be too strong for you even without the Great Ring, for he rules the Nine and of the Seven, he has recovered three.” Fellowship also confirms this: “Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed, but three he has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed.”
The question is: from which of the three Dwarf lines did Sauron recover the three? Recall that the Firebeards and the Broadbeams founded the colonies of Gabilgathol and Tumunzahar in the Ered Luin. (This is the same Ered Luin that Thráin and Thorin lead the exiles to after the sack of Erebor. Also recall in Concerns of the White Council, that the king of Gabilgathol, Azaghâl, came to the aid of the sons of Fëanor to battle Glaurung the Great:
Glaurung the Golden by Lynton Levengood
“In a fit of rage, Glaurung turned on the Dwarf-king, Azaghâl and crawled over him, crushing him to death, but not before Azaghâl plunged a knife in the fire-drake’s belly. Glaurung fled but the wound he received from Azaghâl was not a mortal wound.”)
What we learn of Gabilgathol and Tumunzahar in The Silmarillion is that both Dwarf cities suffered from massive flooding during the fall of Beleriand and were partially destroyed. The exiled peoples wandered and then migrated to Khazad-dûm, and later the Iron Hills, and settled with Durin’s folk. The flooding occurred in the First Age, an age prior to the creation of the Seven Rings, so Sauron could not have acquired the Rings then.
However, in 1980 of the Third Age, a Balrog appears in Khazad-dûm, slaying Durin VI, and the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm fled. We know that the heirs of Durin retained their Ring, but it is possible that Sauron acquired the Rings of the Firebeards and the Broadbeams at this time. Unfortunately, Tolkien’s account of that particular event is not recorded, so this can only be speculated.
Another possibility of how Sauron acquired two of the Rings is during the year 2463 of the Third Age. In Concerns of the White Council, there was an account of Sauron fleeing east to avoid being revealed to the Council too soon: ‘The Council sought clarification on the origins of the Necromancer, some suspecting that Sauron had in fact returned. Their inquiry proves futile, as Sauron senses their approach and retreats east.” It can be speculated that during his time east, Sauron may have encountered the descendants of the Stiffbeards, Blacklocks and Stonefoots. He could have acquired the two Rings during this time too, but again it can only be speculated as Tolkien never discloses how Sauron collects the two Rings of the Dwarves.
Thráin, Thorin and the Last of the Seven Rings of the Dwarves
In part three of this trilogy, we will explore more of the Rings of the Dwarves, how the Ring of the line of Durin is passed to Thráin from Thrór, but not to Thorin from Thráin, and finally how Sauron acquired the third Ring of the Dwarves. We will also explore the ensuing dragon sickness that overcomes Thrór, Thráin and Thorin. It all ties in with the Concerns of the White Council and The Rings of Power. It will explain the rise of the Necromancer and connect Thorin Oakenshield to the One Ring to rule them all.
I leave you to ponder this quote of Gandalf, for it reveals much:
“Nearly all of his ravings were of that:
The last of the Seven“.
Bibliography
Literary Sources:
Carpenter, Humphrey. J. R. R. Tolkien, A Biography. New York: Houghton Mifflin, 2000.
Works of J.R.R. Tolkien:
The Lord of the Rings. New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1994.
Works of J.R.R. Tolkien and Douglas A. Anderson:
The Annotated Hobbit. New York: Houghton Mifflin, 2002.
Works of J.R.R. Tolkien and Christopher Tolkien:
The Return of the Shadow. New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1988.
The Treason of Isengard. New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1989.
The Silmarillion. New York: Houghton Mifflin, 2001.
Tyler, J.E.A. The Complete Tolkien Companion. New York: Thomas Dunne Books 1976.
lordoftheringswiki.com, thrainsbook.net, thorinoakenshield.net, tolkiengateway.net
Movie Sources:
Jackson, P. (Director). (2001). The Fellowship of the Ring. United States: New Line Cinema
(2002) The Two Towers. United States: New Line Cinema
(2003) The Return of the King. United States: New Line Cinema
(2012) The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey. United States: New Line Cinema/Warner Brothers
Illustration Sources:
deviantart.com, lotrwiki.com, rebrick.lego.com, thalion.ovh.org, thorinoakenshield.net, tumblr.com, tolkiengateway.net, vilya.altwevista.org
Map taken from: J.R.R. Tolkien. The Lord of the Rings. New York: Houghton Mifflin 1994.
Photoshop Assistance: Kelly Ramage
Additional Research and Technical Assistance: Dark Jackal at thorinoakenshield.net
Anjy Roemelt said:
Great essay! I am missing just one thing – Gandalf’s mentioning of Frodo – and Bilbo before – being meant to bear the Ring but not by its maker. The way Bilbo finds it imhO is neither an accident nor the power of the Ring. He blindly puts his hand on it in the dark, Tolkien says, but the Ring was just looking for someone to take it out of the cave. Frodo asks if not a goblin or an orc would have suited it better and that’s when Gandalf becomes all mystical and speculates on still another power in charge of events. Neither Gandalf nor Tolkien mention this power by name though given Tolkien’s spiritual background I’d venture a guess on the Valar or Iluvatar himself. And THEN we might ask if Sauron really is as much in control via the Ring as he pleases himself to think.
Ori's plume said:
Anjy,
I agree there is a higher power there in the subtle background. This higher power is the counterbalance to the Ring. I have theories like that myself. Also, who sent the Maiar (wizards) after Greenwood starts to decay in the Third Age? Evidence of the higher power? It is too bad that the Silmarillion was so fractional in areas. Had Tolkien been able to publish it first, I think it would have explained the questions of the higher power. But I agree with your theory.
Anjy Roemelt said:
He could only have published it first if he had ever finished it and I don’t think he ever would have ;-). What’s behind the Silmarillion – as Christopher Tolkien had it published – is his father’s whole life. The Silmarillion in itself is only a glimpse, we would have to throw the History of Middle-Earth and Unfinished Tales into the bargain and still wouldn’t have the whole picture. It’s bot meant to be bound into one book, it is meant to wander around inside this “secondary creation” as Tolkien put it, and discover something new every other corner. You know – “still round the corner there may wait a new road or a secret gate and though we pass them by today tomorrow we may come this way”. Essays like yours are providing folks with a map to this vast and wonderful secondary creation. Great work and a beautiful coompliment to the “secondary creator”, The Professor himself.
Grim Helbeard said:
Another thoroughly intriguing article. Either I’m losing more of my memory than I realize, or you’re a more knowledgeable Tolkien scholar than ever I was. I’m learning a great deal from your writings. I’m most anxious to read your next article concerning Thrain’s possession of the seventh ring.
Your perspectives have given me a good deal to contemplate. Thank you specifically for the details regarding the Dwarven clans and their relations to the rings and corresponding events of Middle Earth. I’ll need to re-read your article and then refer to Tolkien’s texts when I’ve the time.
Keep the articles coming – great work.
Damn … I forgot what else I was going to say.
I must be spending too much time with Radagast.
Grim
Ori's plume said:
Grim,
I have no doubt you are more of a scholar than I am. Just stop eating those mushrooms! The final paper will be up in two weeks and you may feel a bit disturbed when reading it. So brace yourself. May your beard grow ever long…
D.J. said:
It will be good for Grim if he is going to be Thrain II someday (how are those plans coming along anyway?) Good to know everything there is about your own tragic past.
Grim Helbeard said:
Like all plans, delays are inevitable. Another death in the family, and limited business for my private canine rehabilitation practice have sidelined Thrain’s armor.
Finalizing dimensions, material preferences for mobility and comfort – without compromising the integrity of an actual suit of armor, are the real time consuming aspects. Crafting the suit will take time, patience and a potion or two of Radagast’s home brewing, but should proceed methodically as most of my projects do.
If business doesn’t improve, I may redirect my efforts into crafting authentic Dwarven battle gear, axes, warhammers and maybe a few toy trinkets for the children. What youngling wouldn’t want his/her own authentic fire-breathing Smaug
(incendiary mixture not included) … and an archery set to slay the infernal beast.
I have a large collection of iron ore and experience working a small forge. Who says that living re-enactors of history need limit the experience to our own era.
Anyone interested in establishing a modern day Dwarven kingdom (albeit … participants not to proper scale) in our own Middle Earth.
… and NO, I have not been eating Radagast’s mushrooms.
I may have chewed them a bit. It keeps the beard full and lustrous.
Grim
Adelid89 said:
I’m so glad you post this up! The best essay I’ve ever read! Thanks! XD
sybilramkin said:
Oh, dear, I wrote a rather lengthy comment and apparently wordpress ate it.
So here it is again:
First off, thank you for writing this essay. I really enjoyed reading it and all the backstory and linking of The Hobbit and the greater scope of the rest of Tolkien’s legendarium is fascinating.
However, a couple of things niggled in my mind as I read this. Firstly, the notion that the One Ring plays its bearer like a pawn bound for death. This is very intriguing, especially since you speculate that the Ring may be at play in Frodo’s decision to take it to Mordor–an errand that even Gandalf acknowledges is a folly and may well end up in utter failure–thus ensuring its reunion with Sauron.
However, I seem to recall that in more than one occasions (Frodo stabbing the Witch-king at Weathertop, Sam defying the Watchers of Tower of Cirith Ungol, for instance) the hobbits feel as if some sort of power take over their speech and action. In my understanding, this is the reason why Frodo was startled when he heard himself offering to take the Ring to Mordor.
It seems to me that once in the possession of a bearer who have not been directly under Sauron’s control (Isildur, Sméagol, even Bilbo), the Ring inspires a fixation and possessiveness, while to the agents of the Enemy it has a certain magnetic attraction (orcs multiplying near Gladden Fields, Ringwraith drawn to Frodo when he wears it). At Elrond’s council, as the attendees resort to silence contemplating what to do with the Ring, Frodo feels an overwhelming desire to stay in Rivendell with Bilbo. Having recently met Sauron’s chief lackeys, the Ringwraiths, which can only mean that the hunt for the Ring is near its completion, that all it has to achieve is stay put somewhere till the Nazgûl can come pick it up, I speculate that this desire–in contrast to Elrond’s exhortation that the Ring be destroyed–is sparked by the Ring’s reluctance to be taken to the one place it can be destroyed. In this light, Frodo’s speaking up and offering to take the Ring to Mordor can be seen as a defiance against the seduction of the Ring, regardless of whether or not the inspiration has elements of divine meddlesomeness in it. The idea of the Valar, or Eru, or at any rate predestination playing a part in Frodo’s decision, as opposed to the Ring’s wiles, seems to be endorsed by Elrond who put forth the notion that the task was appointed to Frodo. I’d like to know what you think of this theory.
Another quibble is over your assertion that Durin III is the grandson of Durin the Deathless. Durin the Deathless, father of the Longbeard line, died before the end of the First Age. And while there is a Dwarvish tradition that he returns, many times, in a dwarf who bears his likeness and his memory, I cannot recall any canon reference to the fact that Durin II was the biological son of Durin the Deathless and Durin III was likewise the biological son of Durin II, making the three Durins directly linked. I think a “reincarnation” of Durin appears every so often along the Longbeard lineage (and curiously they mark momentous occasions: War of Elves and Sauron, the coming of Balrog), but one Durin is not necessarily father to the next.
Another issue that I find jangling is your theory that the bearers of the Three sail West because they are freed from the influence of the One. Tolkien wrote in Letters that as the One was destroyed, everything kept in stasis by the Three loses its timeless quality. The Elves can no longer halt change in Middle-earth, they can’t keep their haven, their Valinor in Middle-earth, and thus wearied, they leave for the Undying Lands where things remain unchanged. Gandalf, on the other hand, was sent by the Valar (and later sent back by Eru) to bring down Sauron, and as he said in ROTK that his job was done, he was merely going home.
Ori's plume said:
Dear Sybilramkin,
How I love being niggled, quibbled and jangled! For my poor spouse has developed selective hearing about such topics, and my cats simply fall asleep when I talk to them about Middle-earth.
Your comments and theories ‘ring’ true to a certain degree, in my humble opinion.
First, in the Council of Elrond, Frodo felt highly reluctant to take the Ring. He desired nothing more than to return to the Shire. but “A great dread fell on him, as if he was waiting the pronouncement of some doom that he long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken.” Frodo takes up the task of ring bearer. “At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice. I will take the ring…though I do not know the way”. So. is it the Ring, is it just a longing to go back, or is it both? We can interpret it both your way and mine, depending on which philosophy you agree with.
Also Elrond does want Frodo to take the Ring to Mount Doom, to fulfill the need to destroy the Ring. Anjy and I had a brief discussion of this idea of a higher power as a counterbalance to the evil tidings of the Ring. Could this be an example of that, for Elrond is a descendent of the High Elves, the favorites of the Valar?
Durin the III is the Heir of Durin. Though the notion of reincarnation is a belief in Dwarrow lore and ‘religion’, Appendix A, Section III titles Durin’s Folk states that of the Line of Durin the following: “…Durin the Deathless. Yet in the end he died before the Elder Days (First Age) had passed, and his tomb was in Khazad-dum; but his line never failed, and five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin. He was indeed held by the Dwarves to be the Deathless that returned…” So once again, we could be both right depending on the theory. Since the word born is present, I consider Durin the III to be the Heir of Durin.
As for your comment of the Elves passing into the West because they can no longer halt the change in Middle-earth, I can not produce anything as a counterclaim! I am on a quest to prove your theory either way and if I find anything to disagree with your theory, I will post it. Thanks so much for a great set of questions. You made my day.
– Plume
sybilramkin said:
Plume,
Thank you for not whacking me in the head with a battle-axe for being so presumptuous as to question your assertions. :) And I hope you won’t mind me discussing these points a bit further, since now I have my books with me and can present you with some canon arguments to my theories. I too love this kind of conversation, and likewise suffer from chronic dearth of people interested enough to listen to me yammering about Tolkien and Middle-earth. :)
I’m interested in your mentioning the possibility of Elrond’s role in counterbalancing the Ring, since he’s descended from the line of High Elves (and a Maia, since his great-great-grandmother is Melian). Yet, if you look at the entirety of Frodo’s Quest, you can’t help but see that the Powers, the Valar, play a subtle role here and there, nudging things along, tipping the balance in the good guys’s favor. Just consider Frodo’s arms and armor. He has Sting, a Gondolin blade, and a mithril vest–the former made by Noldorin elves, the latter by dwarves, and both races are students of Aulë. Then there is the flashflood in Bruinen. Though it’s Elrond and Gandalf’s doing (FOTR Book I Ch. 1), the waters of Middle-earth are Ulmo’s domain. And then there are the Ents, creatures of Yavanna. And the light of Eärendil, Varda’s brightest star, lighting the pitch blackness of Shelob’s lair. And let’s not forget Manwë’s eagles flying like the wind into Mordor boiling with the destruction of the Ring.
The motive for the sending of the Istari was to stop Sauron without using any of the Maiar angelic powers, relying instead in encouraging, instructing and directing the peoples of Middle-earth into that goal (Appendix B, Unfinished Tales, HoME XII). I think this is understandable given that the two times the Valar took matters into their own hands, the world changed in a brutal, devastating way. The last time that happened was in the War of Wrath that sank Beleriand. We can even argue that the Valar’s decision to reward the Edain with Númenor (like their idea of sheltering the Elves in Aman, which turned out to have been not such a wise move after all) was instrumental in Eru’s rolling up the world into a sphere and completely separating the Undying Lands from Arda.
But Sauron was very strong, and worse, very cunning and deceitful. So I suppose all these teeny tiny nudges by the Valar, made as though it was the mortal’s own decision that moves them, as though it was but the natural course of events, is their way of somehow lending a helping hand in an as insconspicuous way as possible–not the shock and awe of 1st Age wrath, but more a way toward empowerment, through the Istari (well, Gandalf, mostly) and other little things they can sneak in. At least that’s the way I read it. As you can say things in this case can be interpreted either way, not the least by the way we perceive how things work: through our own free will or predestination. But I would say, as powerful as the Ring and its master are, looking at it through the lenses of history really shows how ultimately the odds are stacked against them. Once the free peoples decide to set aside their indifference, racial prejudice, and selfish interests, it’s like a dam breaking. :)
I’m afraid I might not have been clear enough in my first comment (ESL speaker here). I certainly wasn’t trying to suggest that the Durins are not born from the same lineage, or not biologically related. My assumption on the relation between Durin the Deathless and Durin III is, granted, based on nothing explicit in the canon. But in HOME XII the dwarves are said to live up to 300 years or so. Dwalin was quite an exception, living to the ripe old age of 340. Durin I may have lived much longer than that, having awakened before the age of the Sun and died before the end of 1st Age. There is a nearly 1600 year gap between the end of 1st Age and the forging of the rings of power in Eregion. If Durin III is the biological son of Durin II, who as you presumed is the biological son of Durin the Deathless, that would make too big a gap between them, even taking into account the Longbeards’ extra longevity compared to other dwarf clans.
Also, if you look at the House of Durin family tree in the Appendix, there are eleven kings, father to son, between Durin VI and the last Durin, the seventh. That’s why I assume that the name Durin is given to dwarves of that house, with striking likeness to the previous Durins, but not necessarily their biological son. It could be that one Durin is the great great great grandfather of the next Durin.
Now if you’re not tired yet… :) I would have to lay out my argument over the reason for the bearers of the Three’s departure to the West in the next comment because I’m typing on my phone and the edit box can only hold so many words. :)
D.J. said:
You wrote all this on a phone? Now that is amazing!
sybilramkin said:
Dear Plume,
I said in my first comment that I had some issues with your assertion that the bearers of the Three can depart after the destruction of the One, because they are released from Sauron’s influence.
Part of the basis for my disagreement is this remark from Gandalf to Aragorn in ROTK Book VI ch. 5.
“And Gandalf said: ‘…The Third Age of the world is ended, and the new age is begun; and it is your task to order its beginning and to preserve what may be preserved. For though much has been saved, much must now pass away; and the power of the Three Rings also is ended…. For the time comes of the Dominion of Men, and the Elder Kindred shall fade or depart.'”
Later he said: “‘The Third Age was my age. I was the Enemy of Sauron; and my work is finished. I shall go soon….'”
This is further elaborated in Silmarillion, chapter “Of The Rings of Power and The Third Age” where it is said that after the Three lost its power to the Firstborn the world grew old and grey.
After all, in Letter #131 in Letters of JRR Tolkien, he wrote: “The chief power (of all the ring alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. ‘change’ viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved or its semblance–this is more or less an Elvish motive….”
Furthermore Tolkien wrote in Letter #181 : “…The ‘Three Rings’ were ‘unsulied’, because this object was in a limited way good, it included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change; and the Elves did not desire to dominate other wills, nor to usurp all the world to their particular pleasure. But with the downfall of ‘Power’ their little efforts of preserving the past fell to bits. There was nothing more in Middle-earth for them, but weariness. So Elrond and Galadrield depart. Gandalf is a special case, he was not the maker or original holder of the Ring–but it was surrendered to him by Círdan, to assist him in his task. Gandalf was returning, his labour and errand finished, to his home, the land of the Valar….”
So, yes, in a sense the destruction of the One does seem to be instrumental in the departure of the bearers of the Three, but not in the sense that they could not leave while the One was exerting its influence on their ring, so that when the One was destroyed, the “ban” was lifted. The One was actually making the Elves’s stay in Middle-earth bearable, even enjoyable, because while it exists the power of Nenya that protects and preservs Lothlórien remains, and the same goes with Vilya in Rivendell. With the One gone, Middle-earth becomes unbearable. I always imagine it to be like older people finding it hard to live with the younger generations and the changes they are making in the world.
Grim Helbeard said:
Sybil
Dark and mysterious, you are.
A complex and calculating mind, you have.
A descendant of the Elves, I suspect.
Agents of the dark side, they are.
Cheers
Grim
P.S. What do you mean by ‘older people’?
Ori's plume said:
Hi Sybilramkin,
You make such great points. I have completely forgot the Unfinished Tales, until you reminded me of them. In fact, I never really finished the Unfinished Tales (unfinished Unfinished Tales with a chuckle), but simply pick them up when I am searching for content in a subject matter that I may be researching. This is great information, especially the Valar and their subtle interference with Sauron’s plans.
The chronology of the Heirs of Durin is well put! I can’t believe I missed that. Yes, the generational chronology does not add up. I wonder if Tolkien omitted more stories? He certainly edited and reedited the Appendix, many times over, and was never really content, even after publication with the final outcome. There is so much content that he created, it is surprising that the man had time to teach and help raise a family of six!.
Have you considered writing an essay? You should.
-Plume
Ori's plume said:
Grim,
I suspect the same. Just great stuff this one is made of! Though an agent of the dark side, that remains to be seen. If Sybil has a beard, then Sybil stands a chance of being one of us, though, technically I have just downy feathers.
-Plume
Grim Helbeard said:
I think I was born with downy feathers, or maybe the beard was already there.
But being one of those ‘older persons’ – I can’t really recall the last age.
Here’s a question to determine if Sybil is of the pointy eared persuasion –
Why does ‘Sting’ radiate a blue light in the presence of goblins, and not the other elvish blades. One would think that ‘Glamdring’ – fashioned for the king of Gondolin, or ‘Orcrist’ – also crafted for the goblin wars would share similar qualities.
Any thoughts on Sting’s origin, or unique properties – other than it’s capacity as a very efficient letter opener.
Grim
sybilramkin said:
Grim,
Personally, I would think it a compliment to be suspected of an agent of the Elves. To quote Tolkien in The Hobbit ch. 8: “…Still Elves they were and remain, and that means Good People.”
Because after all, in the War of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men against Sauron, The Silmarillion in the chapter Of The Rings of Power and The Third Age has this to say of the Elves (yes, even the Mirkwood Elves who went to that war under Thranduil’s father Oropher to be slain in what was to become the Dead Marshes): “All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even beasts and birds, were found in each host, save the Elves only.”
So they might be a paranoid bunch of people inclined to be harsh with trespassers, but I would be honored to be considered one of them. Alas I can’t sing worth a damn, my command of Sindarin is limited to lembas and miruvor, and at best I may look comely, but certainly not fair to look upon.
And I regret to say that I am beardless, can’t tell the difference between a diamond and a glass shard and the closest thing to a weapon I’ve ever held is a pen. But to quote one Frodo Baggins, fellow Shire dweller and Bilbo’s nephew to boot: “I am a friend of all enemies of the One Enemy.” So you may put that axe down now, if you please. :)
And apologies if the mention of old people irked you. I was referring to my mother’s generation (she’s now pushing seventy) who are suspicious of anything with too many buttons and prefer face-to-face interaction to anything that involves cable. Unfortunately the ones who share this opinion happen to be those in her age group as well.
sybilramkin said:
Plume,
I find Unfinished Tales, especially the stories from the Second and Third Ages, very helpful in explaining a lot of things not quite covered in LOTR and The Silmarillion. And the fact that it’s compact and mostly already in polished, story format makes the tales easier and more enjoyable to read compared to the mishmash that all HOME sometimes has to offer. Of course, like you, I started by looking things up using the Index. :)
I’m honored that you think that I should be writing essays. I’ve been writing some for fellow members of Eorlingas: Indonesian Tolkien Society, because most of them have only seen the movies and The Silmarillion has yet to be translated into our native language. That’s why I’ve been perusing my books a lot lately, to answer questions arising from The Hobbit movies and new members who have seen LOTR but have a lot of things to ask because they haven’t read The Silmarillion, UT, or HOME. But the essays I wrote are in Indonesian and I usually just do the writing, while a fellow member is tasked with finding appropriate fanart or photos to illustrate it. I have yet to write a full-fledged essay in English with illustrations and bibliography as you have done on this site.
Ori's plume said:
Sybil,
If you ever feel so inspired, contact Dark Jackal on the home page. He will love to hear your ideas.
-Plume
Grim Helbeard said:
Sybil
An elf-friend you may be, but sincere and noble, I feel also. Likewise, I know of no-one who quotes the texts of Tolkien to the degree that you have. A scholar, you certainly are.
Though I have not reached the venerable age of 70 – I too am of the generation, and personal preference of abstaining from technology wherever possible. My correspondence here at ‘Heirs of Durin’ is the extent of my global communications. I do still write letters to my family and friends.
Parchment and ink, those letters are. Dwarves don’t text.
Grim
P.S. Many an I-Phone has my axe cleaved.
sybilramkin said:
Grim,
Now your test is tricky. If I can answer your question re: glowing blades, does that confirm that I’m of the pointy-eared persuasion, or is it the other way around? If I can answer it, will it allay your suspicion or heighten it? Besides, hobbits have pointed ears too. To which persuasion, elvish or hobbity, are you trying to categorize me? :)
But to your question. First of all, what makes you so sure that Glamdring and Orcrist don’t glow in the presence of Orcs?
“[Gandalf] took out his sword again, and again it flashed in the dark by itself. It burned with a rage that made it gleam id goblins were about; now it was bright as blue flame for delight in the killing of the great lord of the cave…. This sword’s name was Glamdring the Foe-hammer….” (The Hobbit, ch. 4)
Then later: “At this point Gandalf fell behind, and Thorin with him. They turned a sharp corner. ‘About turn!’ he shouted. ‘Draw your sword, Thorin!’
….the goblins…came scurrying round the corner in full cry, and found Goblin-cleaver, and Foe-hammer shining cold and bright right in their astonished eyes.”
Also: “…Orcrist, the elvish sword…is said in songs that it gleamed ever in the dark if foes approached, and the fortress of the dwarves could not be taken by surprise.” (The Hobbit, ch. XVIII)
And: “No gleam came from the blades of Sting or Glamdring; and that was some comfort, for being the work of Elvish smiths in the Elder Days, the swords shone with a cold light if any Orcs were near at hand.” (FOTR Book II ch. 4)
If neither Ocrist nor Glamdring glow in the presence of Orcs/Goblins in the movie, I would dismiss it as oversight on PJ’s team. Perhaps, since LOTR Glamdring doesn’t glow, they didn’t make it glow in AUJ for the sake of continuity. Or else, the rumor that the swords are made not to glow to avoid resemblance to lightsabers might have been true after all.
As to what makes the blades glow in the first place, I cannot find any specific reference in the books I have read (and there are plenty of passages in HOME that I have yet to read). I can only make speculations based on what I know from the books and leave it to you to consider.
We know that all three blades are made in Gondolin. We know that Orcrist and Glamdring have seen service in battle, in “the Goblin-wars” according to Elrond. We know that Sting is long enough to serve as a short sword for Bilbo, and given that hobbit may stand as tall as four feet, that would make Sting something in the vicinity of a foot or a 1’5″ in length. A bit unwieldy for a letter opener, no? Especially since nowhere in The Hobbit it is described thus, and if anything, it is referred to as an Elvish dagger.
We know that Gondolin is led by Turgon son of Fingolfin, a Noldor. And that means his people is steeped in craft-lore, maybe even once students of Mahal himself in the days before they are caught in the net of Fëanor’s oath and perforce depart from Valinor. Gondolin stood the longest against the treachery of Morgoth, giving its people a chance to further develop their craft (as evidenced by their superior defensive structures and armoury). One of its subjects is Maeglin, whose father and first instructor is Eöl the Dark Elf, who learns metallurgy from the Dwarves of Blue Mountain and can fashion armor from meteorite metal that can deflect arrows and spears despite its thinness.
As I recall, after Gondolin was founded it did not open its gates again until Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Battle of Unnumbered Tears. This is perhaps the first “Goblin-war” in which the military might of the Gondolindrim was put to the test, before war itself arrives at its doorstep with dragons and balrogs. The Nirnaeth is then the war where Orcrist and Glamdring earn their monikers, Biter and Beater, and their fearsome reputation among the orcs.
Now here is where I delve into the realm of speculation. It’s true that Elvish, especially Noldorin, technology is massively impressive so that they may appear like magic (take the palantír). We know powerful blades used against the enemy (Glamdring, Orcrist, Merry’s dagger that undid the Witch-king, Pippin’s Troll-bane) have runes on them. Sting doesn’t but it does glow near orcs. So I think, maybe it isn’t so much the runes on the sword that gives it its magic as much as the technology of its making and its use. Maybe, like our body developing warning system after contact with pathogens, so do swords that have tasted Orcish blood pick up the ability to detect nearby enemies–some kind of applied advanced DNA recognition layering on the steel, perhaps? But again this is nothing more than speculation. The Elves had made a lot of amazing things (phial of Galadriel, anyone?), and their technology is alas undiscussed anywhere in the professor’s work. I have yet to find a more canon or more plausible explanation for the blue glow of the Gondolin blades, and believe me I’ve been looking for it myself.
Grim Helbeard said:
Sybil
“By my beard!” … You should have been hired as a consultant for the films.
If you are reading this PJ – you may want to hire Sybil before finalizing the balance of the trilogy.
As to weather you are an elf or a hobbit – I’m convinced of neither – you must be the ‘Evermind’ from Frank Herbert’s ‘Dune’ prequels. If you are writing your responses from a phone – then I’m backing off, because you are either drinking an abundance of espresso … or you are an intelligence operative. Scary.
What do you do? Genetic engineering … Quantum physics
Humbly yours
Grim
Grim Helbeard said:
Sybil
P.S. ‘Evermind’ is also a term of endearment – can you guess the reference?
Impress me.
Grim
Grim Helbeard said:
Not taking the bait …
Simbelmyne – “The Evermind that knows no season and withers not” grew before the Gate of Silver in Gondolin in the first Age.
It’s okay, you probably knew that … being an elf.
Cheers
Grim
sybilramkin said:
Grim,
You set me quite a riddle with evermind, you really did, because I cannot recall any reference of its use as a term of endearment. If anything, the flower has a such a spooky connotation, because Gandalf said: “…Evermind they are called, simbelmynë in this land of Men, for they blossom in all seasons of the year and grew where dead men rest….” And he said it while pointing out the mounds of dead Rohan kings. I know hobbits name some of their maidchildren after flowers, but I can’t think of any parents morbid enough to name their lass Evermind. :)
Grim Helbeard said:
I see … and you have a point, though I was implying an incomparable intellect (Dune) and a timeless symbol of elven majesty (“The Evermind that knows no season and withers not” grew before the Gate of Silver in Gondolin in the first Age)
Dwarves rarely compliment … and less so to elves.
Kindly turn aside that arrow now, so well aimed at my bearded visage.
And if I’m subconsciously inclined to be a bit morbid … well, I am Grim.
sybilramkin said:
I wouldn’t presume to point an arrow so harshly. Plus, had I nocked an arrow, it would be on a hobbit bow. Not as fancy as an elf bow, perhaps, but tried and true. Hobbit bows, after all, played a part in the war that gave Middle-earth the game of golf.
Grim Helbeard said:
I must be getting old … I’ve begun responding to myself.
Grim
Ori's plume said:
Sybil,
Though you have no beard, I am so impressed. I still can not produce a counterclaim to our discussion to the Elves sailing to the Undying Lands. I am editing my article and taking that passage out entirely! It is a pity that you eat on clay and your forks are tin, for your quill produces such excellent prose!
-Plume
Misty said:
Great work! I have learnt much from it and cannot wait to read the third part. And I must say your and Sybil’s knowledge is just amazing.
Now, may well be trivial, but did you ever think of why Gandalf is given the color grey? Is it because there is black and white (the ultimate BAD and the ultimate GOOD, the ultimate NO and the ultimate YES …), but usually nothing in the world is only black or only white, but mostly a shade of grey depending on which aspect you look at it from, and in this sense, Gandalf represents the ’golden (oops, grey) mean’?
sybilramkin said:
Misty,
Interesting theory, and given Tolkien’s penchant for putting layers of meanings and significance to objects and words in his legendarium, there may be truth in it.
Certainly the peoples Gandalf work for (the Valar) and with (Hobbits, Dwarves, Men, Elves) are not beyond flaws. The Valar have the arrogance to think that they can protect the Elves by isolating them in Valinor. Hobbits grow complacent and indifferent to things happening outside the Shire. Dwarvish pursuit for wealth has resulted in conflicts since the First Age (the Nauglamir incident in Doriath, for instance). Men…. Well, the Númenoréan rebel against the Valar, demanding immortality. Gondorian high council are so racist that they drive the kingdom into civil strife when a king marries a princess of non-Númenoréan descent. The Rohirrim hunt down Wild Men of Druadan Forest like animals. And Elves? Fëanor and his sons kill their kinsmen, on three different occasions. The Sindar of Doriath refuse to join Maedhros Alliance against Morgoth because of the kinslaying. Celebrimbor may have inklings of who Annatar really is, and yet let himself be blinded by the thirst for higher craft-lore. Every race, every people has their shameful history.
Of course, if you read Tolkien, you know better than to judge a race, a people, by the atrocious deeds committed by a few of them. Among the Valar there is Ulmo the gainsayer. Among the placid, isolationist hobbits there are Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin. For all the Ar Adûnakhôr of the Númenoréan there is an Amandil father of Elendil. And the Gondorian have Cirion who gives Calenardhon so the Rohirrim, people of non-Númenoréan descent, can have a country. And the Rohirrim redeems themselves with Théoden, really. And for every Fëanor and his seven sons the Noldor have the likes of Finrod Felagund and Galadriel. Et cetera. It’s the individual act and decision that counts, not your people’s history.
But back to Gandalf. So, okay, the company he is with isn’t free from blemish. But is Gandalf himself similarly a mishmash of good and evil? I’d like to think no. Gandalf said to the Three Hunters after he is returned, that he is Saruman as he is supposed to be. It’s interesting how white in Elvish also refers to purity. Tolkien in letter #156 in Letters of JRR Tolkien said that Gandalf is the only wizard to pass the test. He is the only one who sticks to his primary goal to fight Sauron while adhering to the codes imposed by the Valar, that he should refrain from using and demonstrating his Maiar powers to do so. Gandalf isn’t distracted by Middle-earth’s charms like Radagast. He isn’t lured by the illusion of power like Saruman. We don’t know exactly what happened to the Blue Wizards. But as Tolkien said only Gandalf has passed the test, we can assume the blues aren’t faring much better than Radagast and Saruman (plus, Saruman begins to be more obvious about his desire for power since returning from the East. And where did the blues go? Yep.) So Gandalf is really the pure one, not Saruman. He is not a mean, not in the middle; if anything he represents the end of the spectrum, the good end.
Tolkien admits that Gandalf has his idiosyncrasis (Grumpy Gandalf, heee…) and makes judgment errors (being swayed by Saruman words in the White Council can be construed as an error in judgment I think). But personal peccadilloes are not the same with compromised principle. Okay, sure he practically steals Shadowfax from Rohan, but he does not steal the Shire and oppress its people like Saruman does.
I’m still posting from phone, so, yeah…edit box character limit. But I’d like to offer you a bit of what Tolkien says about Gandalf and why he is grey in the next comment.
sybilramkin said:
Misty,
So here is what I can gather about why Gandalf is (initially) the Grey.
We know that Gandalf is a Maia, a lesser angelic power from Aman, the land of the gods in West where Valinor is. He is known there as Olórin.
“…Many are my names in many countries, ‘ [Gandalf] said. “…Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten….'” (TTT, book IV, ch. 5)
“…Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin…his ways took him often to the house of Niënna, and of her he learned pity and patience.
…for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put in their hearts.” (The Silmarillion, Valaquenta, Of The Maiar)
So we know that Gandalf is not one to reveal himself and demonstrate his power openly, preferring to remain behind the scene, so to speak.
Then there’s this scene where the Valar convene to discuss the appointment of emissaries to Middle-earth:
“Who would go? For they must be mighty peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and wearinesses coming from the flesh. But two only came forward: Curumo who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in grey and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him….” (Unfinished Tales, The Istari)
So Gandalf was sent by Manwë, the highest of the Valar who, aside from Mandos, perhaps knows best the designs of Iluvatar (that Gandalf was attached to Manwë is also mentioned in Tolkien’s letter). And even in Valinor he wears grey!
Then this scene from the arrival of the Istari in Middle-earth:
“…and…came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff. But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence….” (Unfinished Tales, The Istari)
“…named among the Elves Mithrandir, the Grey Pilgrim, for he dwelt in no place, and gathered to himself neither wealth nor followers, but ever went to and fro in the Westlands from Gondor to Angmar, and from Lindon to Lórien, befriending all folk in times of need. Warm and eager was his spirit (and it was enhanced by the ring Narya), for he was the Enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes with the fire that kindles and succours in wanhope and distress; but his joy, and his swift wrath, were veiled in garments as grey as ash, so that only those that knew him well glimpsed the flame that was within….” (Unfinished Tales, The Istari)
So we know Gandalf travels a lot (grey more practical for travel? :D), but more importantly, that his clothes are grey because they’re a kind of veil, camouflage for his powers, supporting his disguise as nothing more than an old grumpy man with a lot on his mind.
“Yet it is said that in the ending of the task for which he came he suffered greatly, and was slain, and being sent back from the death for a brief while was clothed then in white, and became a radiant flame (yet veiled still save in great need).” (Unfinished Tales, The Istari)
Misty said:
Dear Sybil, this is a great privilege to me that it was you who answered my question and so thoroughly. Your knowledge is just amazing. I have to admit that, being quite a latecomer to Tolkien’s world (I loved the LOTR films but only The Hobbit made me delve deeper into it), my knowledge is yet scattered and some of the names you mentioned are even unknown to me. I am especially grateful and bow with respect and awe.
When posting this question I may not have been specific or clear enough for which please be so kind to accept my apologies then. I absolutely agree with what you said: “But is Gandalf himself similarly a mishmash of good and evil? I’d like to think no. […] So Gandalf is really the pure one, not Saruman. He is not a mean, not in the middle; if anything he represents the end of the spectrum, the good end.”
“So we know that Gandalf is not one to reveal himself and demonstrate his power openly, preferring to remain behind the scene, so to speak.”
What I meant was not that Gandalf himself was a ‘mean’, a mishmash of good and evil, but that he was the one maneuvering between/amidst the two sides of things of the world around him (not necessarily (only) good and evil, but the positive and negative sides/aspects of things, whatever they would be), finding the best ways/solutions to make things go on, balancing things etc. (by wisdom, counsel, his deeds…). I hope I could make it clearer now.
I know the quotes you made in the second part of your answer from Unfinished Tales (the Silmarillion part and the TTT part are also presented in Unfinished Tales as well). They do provide evidence that Gandalf was dressed in grey, but I do not see that they would provide any explanation for why Tolkien has given him this color, apart from your speculations that it is more practical for travelling and was an obvious means of disguise (unless I missed something, due to my lack of knowledge or not so good competence of the language, English not being my first language). So my question would be whether there is any sort of such – or other – symbolism behind Tolkien’s choice of the color grey.
sybilramkin said:
Plume,
What makes you so sure my forks are made of tin? Maybe I have silver spoons that my greedy cousin covets. Maybe I don’t haggle because my da is a rich pipeleaf baron. And maybe we don’t buy weapons because Tuckborough terrains is made for guerilla warfare. I mean, all these scrolls are sent from Minas Tirith at a price, and I would hardly be able to sit idly reading them if I have to toil in mushroom beds or tater plots now, would I?
Ori's plume said:
Sybil,
Yes, your point, as usual, is well put. However you still eat on clay! But, a scholar you are and a scholar you remain. I am also very touched that you are so devoted to Tolkien and the Indonesian Tolkien Society. Very admirable indeed. Translation can be difficult, especially Tolkien’s work. He played with words and meaning like a cat to a mouse. And Tuckborough? Pipeleaf? You must hail from the realm of Eriador. Your weaponry must have come from the Ered Luin, or at least the iron. But I think being such a scholar, your weapons lay on mantels as adornment. Your quill is a weapon of choice. And you use it well.
-Plume
sybilramkin said:
Plume,
Thank you very much for your gracious words. And yes, you’re right. Translating Tolkien’s work is hard, especially since he used a lot of archaic vocabulary and also because Bahasa Indonesia shares very little in common with European languages (and Tolkien’s work is tricky enough to translate even into languages that share common roots with English). But since I love languages myself, and I love the intricate, layered ways Tolkien used languages to paint and sculpt Middle-earth. The bits and pieces of translations and essays I write are no hardship really, it’s all a fascinating work. Besides, Tolkien’s works had brought my very best friends into my life. And for that I can’t thank him enough.
fantasywind said:
Well if I am to stick to details then I would sat that One Ring and horcrux are vitaly different in their functioning, first of all Sauron doesn’t need the Ring to be immortal as he is divine being he already is truly immortal. He can’t be copmpletely destroyed or die even though his physical form can (to think about it spirits are actually indestructible but only divine beings who are in NATURE spiritual and have no need for physical form at all can be dangerous without bodies and affect the world in various ways, of course Dark Lords actually prefer to have bodies for better control over material reality than to be simply spirits), while horcrux primary function is to store a part of soul, in lotr there is no possibility to actually split a soul or spirit, we know that Sauron passed some of his (actually greater amount) power and being but there is no spirit in the Ring, his creator’s will, melovent consciousness, but not a soul! It may act with semblence of sentience, take care of it’s own but it’s not any jar of soul for Sauron (even after destruction of the Ring he didn’t die, just lost enormous amount of power and was rendered a spirit of little strength left to wander the world, or possibly any other fate like visiting Morgoth in prison :) :) :) :) he had then no hope for reclaiming his power but even spirits can affect world in some ways, the stronger originally spirit was the more, for example spirits/shadows of Dead Men of Dunharrow were viewed by Legolas to be weak, well they were men so their souls had less power than elvish spirits so his assumption has some ground, in other Tolkien writings and in Lotr itself are also mentioned ,,elvish wights” which might be spirits of dead elves who either posessed the living or corpses to do some mischief, Rohirrim believed they were dangerous, it might be their vague memory of the time when Eotheod lived in the North and of Necromancer in Mirkwood who would do necromantic practices with such spirits)
Also other more important thing the Ring does (which horcruxes couldn’t) is to amplify Sauron’s power to much greater level and to control ALL other Rings of Power and their wearers, simply mind controlling them, ,,governing their thoughts” (even the lesser rings, you know those ,,essays in craft but still dangerous for mortals” with enough power to be a perilous tool in wrong hands). So the Ring makes Sauron much more powerful when he wears it (just like all other Rings would enhance natural abilities and powers of posessors) but even without it on finger he would retain the exact same level of power he had before it’s making (it’s a win win situation for him in late Third Age, his enemies had grown weak, he is still the same, if he regains the Ring he will be utterly powerful, if not he still wins simply by the power he always had).
Also if there are other things which I’m not agreeing with is the fact that you’re implying the solely influence of the Ring guiding actions of Frodo during Lotr, first of all in my opinion it’s both the Ring and other power at work here, Ring wants to return to it’s master so it sends compelling impulses on Frodo but in situations of things he does to resist (not all because there are thing he simply does with his sheer strength of will and bravery) like when calling upon the name of Elbereth it might be a subtle nudge from the Valar which aims only to strenghen him not to coerce into anything (there are other instance where the influence is almost visible, the wind from the west which disperses the darkness before the time Sauron set to dissipate and the strange coincidences which shape events accordingly, maybe the prophetic dreams of Frodo too, Faramir and Boromir also had a dream and Faramir had also retrospective dreams but in their case it might be the typical gift of Numenoreans who were granted special mind abilities and foresight).
Also I’m not sure whether associating the writings on West-door of Moria with moon-letter is accurate, the moon-letters are special kind of runes devised by the dwarves, visible only in light of the moon sometimes especially encrypted to be visible under light of moon in SPECIFIC PHASE as the one which was when they were written (with special silver pens). The incription on dwarf-gate of Moria (magical in it’s own right and made by Narvi as you said) were made by Celebrimbor from ithildin (it appears to be special alloy of mithril invented by elves which reflects the light of stars and moon, sometimes activated to shine by speaking secret words, one of the many uses elves had for mithril besides wealth :) ).
As for dragon-sickness, my opinion is that it’s partly mundane, partly magical affliction that strikes those already susceptible to greed. I think that it can be a magical imprint of ill will of a dragon a curse of sorts that can be broken and avoided (dragons are the greed incarnate, the wild and dark desires made flesh, so on their own when not used and additionally corrupted by Dark Powers, they might be not particularly, well…pure evil, but just selfish and having uncontrollable needs and desires :) with cunning wits and great deal of vanity, in the same time they enjoy civil conversation and good manners :) ). This passage seems to imply it (also dragons are simply magical creatures so it’s possible):
,,But also he did not reckon with the power that gold has upon which a dragon has long brooded, nor with dwarvish hearts. Long hours in the past days Thorin had spent in the treasury, and the lust of it was heavy on him. Though he had hunted chiefly for the Arkenstone, yet he had an eye for many another wonderful thing that was lying there, about which were wound old memories of the labours and the sorrows of his race.” The Hobbit
(later we are told that even though king Dain became fabulously rich, he gave it away freely, and never fell to greed, maybe the act of generosity is what broke this ,,curse”?! :), well even Thorin redeemed himself before death and escaped th sad fate of Master of Laketown for example so he wasn’t fully consumed by it).