Last year I wrote a very spontaneous essay on my three favourite dwarves mainly because I was annoyed how much hate they received for reasons I did not understand. Never did I think this essay would become as popular as it did.
Now, after The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug came to the cinemas, a couple of people came up to me and asked me carefully: “Are you going to do it again after this film?”
I wasn’t going to, but after some time I thought: You are right, maybe I should. And if people are actually expecting me to do it, I should even more so. So I thank those people for their trust and hope they will like my second attempt as well.
I will be using the common abbreviations for the three parts of the trilogy: AUJ = An Unexpected Journey, DOS = Desolation of Smaug, TABA = There And Back Again
What might not be obvious after the first or second viewing, and what took me also a while to notice: All three heirs changed distinctively from AUJ to DOS. Thorin is lured by the gold, Fili has to decide where his loyalties lie and Kili, well… we all saw what happened to him (how dare you, Kili?)
Thorin’s change was the biggest. After being the rough but still likeable tragic hero in AUJ he is now tempted more and more by the gold. It might not be as obvious yet (I expect this change to follow an even more drastic course in TABA), but the true dimension can be seen in a couple of short glimpses.
We all know the obvious scenes: “I will not risk this quest for the life of one burglar,” and the confrontation between Thorin and Bilbo inside Erebor, but it is in fact his facial expressions that tell us a lot about what is going on in his head. I had never seen such utter despair on Thorin’s face before than in that scene where he thinks the whole quest is lost because of the last light of Durin’s Day dilemma. He looks as if his world would shut down any minute. In this moment he assumes the big goal in his life is lost and he must realize that he never made any plans should he fail. Because a dwarf simply does not expect to fail, especially not such a proud one as Thorin. He has that same fear a bit later in the film. When the dwarves hear the dragon inside the mountain, he gets the same helpless “Oh no, I won’t be able to fulfill my quest!” face. It is an almost perfect depiction of hopelessness and loss of goals in life.
On the other hand he changes very quickly in his temper. When Bilbo finds the keyhole after they had given up, and Thorin picks up the key from the ground, he has this especially greedy and demanding look in his eyes. It’s a look that makes you back up involuntarily, and no way would you ever consider antagonizing him!
Thorin’s mood towards others also changes. He becomes more restless and impatient the closer he gets to the mountain. In AUJ he was the perfect leader and protective of every member of his company. There are multiple times where he cries out for certain dwarves or Bilbo, saves them, etc. He might be too stubbornly proud at times to admit caring for them, but his actions speak otherwise. The last time we see this kind of Thorin is just before Beorn’s house when he grabs startled Bombur by the beard to drag him along into safety.
Later in DOS, however, Thorin gets more careless about the other dwarves. He doesn’t even hesitate to leave Kili and Bofur behind, not even a mention of Oin, hardly fights for Fili remaining in the company, and he is even willing to risk Bilbo’s life – or even harming him himself! As long as he gets gold and the Arkenstone everything else is secondary to him – even leaving behind his own kin (more on this particular scene later on).
In both films Thorin is confronted with a situation where he is more or less asked “Weren’t we supposed to meet Gandalf here?” When he answers in the cave in the Misty Mountains his face and voice show concern and to me it always sounded as if he is not comfortable at all going on without Gandalf. While in DOS, however, he is almost annoyed to be asked. After all, what is Bilbo thinking? That he needs that stupid wizard to fulfill his quest? Of course he thinks he could do all of this without the help of others. His mind is already that influenced by the gold sickness at that point.
There is one scene in particular where it shows how far this has gone: when running away from Smaug he actually commands Bilbo to go with Balin, and for an instant he faces the dragon completely alone. But he himself realizes just a second later that this was a very bad idea, that he is not invincible after all. It leads to the scene of him standing on Smaug’s snout. Without Dwalin’s and Nori’s help he would have never made it out of there.
Interestingly enough seeing all the gold in Erebor doesn’t seem to give Thorin relief. He looks as if it burdens him when he finally has it in front of his eyes. It’s a typical behaviour of drug addicts: they can live neither with nor without their drug. And in the end dragon sickness is no more than a classic addiction.
Kili is introduced to us in AUJ as a very cheerful dwarf, sometimes reckless and maybe not the brightest, but still likeable. Ever since the Special Extended Edition, and even more so since DOS, we know that his looks are not the only thing about him that is completely atypical for a dwarf. Being open-minded to other cultures is a good thing, and is actually even hinted at for the young dwarves in the Hobbit book, but his attraction to an elf is just too much for a proper dwarf. I like it how the other dwarves in Rivendell make fun of him when he shows interest in the elves – it marks him the odd one out. So it is very surprising that NONE of the dwarves in the company says anything about him getting even more serious about this in DOS.
Kili also has two similar scenes in AUJ and DOS: twice he is the first one who thoughtlessly jumps into danger. While it ends well in the troll scene, it doesn’t when he tries to reach the lever at the elven gate. Kili is a very young dwarf and maybe battle-ready, but not battle-hardened yet. He enjoys fighting and showing his abilities; you can see that in every scene of him using his weapons. But before this quest he obviously never has been in a real fight before. Even more importantly he never had a serious injury before. So the moment that arrow hits him, he must realize for the first time in his life that he is not invincible and he could be dead quicker than he thinks. He got a glimpse of bad things happening when he was separated from his brother in the stone giant scenes, but now it got even more serious (and that trend will continue in TABA…). And each time things don’t go as planned he is startled yet again. He hasn’t yet learned to deal with setbacks.
And starting from the point of his injury, Kili acts atypically again by suffering and whining over his wound. He tries to cover it up, but doesn’t really succeed. Dwarves have learned not to show pain or weaknesses, to be tough and always ready, no matter how miserable they might feel inside. Thorin gives us a beautiful glimpse of this as he slips out of his burning coat and just walks on as if nothing had happened. I am sure he was also afraid of injuries in that moment, but never would he show that, which also means he has no sympathy for those who do. He is very impolite towards whining Kili and gives him absolutely no time to rest, even burdens him with even more weapons to carry. And I am quite sure at least this little part has nothing to do with dragon sickness, but is simply annoyance with un-dwarflike, dishonourable behaviour over a – what he probably considers– tiny little wound.
In DOS Fili seems to have little else to do than worry about his brother and show off his weapon arsenal. Many people have expressed concern over this, because he should be given greater importance being an heir of Durin and because of his fate.
I, too, was annoyed, especially because Fili has three big scenes in the book (the rope scene, the apple line, being haughty with the captain of the Lake-town guard) and none of those made it into the film. However maybe even to Fili there is more than one sees on the surface.
Yes, he is over-protective of his brother, but that is not necessarily a bad thing, as Kili IS his little brother after all. I imagine before going on the quest somebody (Thorin? Dis?) told him to look after his brother for the duration of the journey. And he is a loyal, responsible dwarf, so he holds on to that, even though he is only five years older than Kili, which is absolutely nothing in the long life of a dwarf. And even if nobody told him that, maybe he is just doing it as a habit. After all, to dwarves kinship holds the highest value so it is just natural he is so close to his brother. Why does Kili hardly show any of this? Well, he is the younger one, and he is introduced to us as quite a reckless individual (even his mother thinks so), so it might just be his personality. That is even more a reason for Fili to watch out for him.
Of course when one has to look after the other he has to be alert, and Fili definitely is, considering all the knives, swords and daggers he carries with him. He might have overdone it a bit though. Yes, just like Kili, Fili too is battle-ready but not battle-hardened yet. Maybe he was nervous when packing and took more than he needed. But better too much, than too little, right? Still, even though he might have the same concerns about battle and getting injured as Kili, he seems to be the more stoic one and doesn’t show it too much on the outside. That is one of several hints of him being the more regal one of the two.
Fili copies a lot of characteristics of his uncle; being a tough fighter and not showing concerns too much on the outside are two of them. Also, he is just as sceptical about elves as Thorin. Never at any point in Mirkwood does he show any sympathy for them, not even when they save his brother. And when Tauriel comes to Lake-town to Kili’s aid, he doesn’t quite know which feeling should prevail – concern for his brother or mistrust of the elf? Those mixed thoughts can be seen on his face at any point there.
Interestingly enough, as Thorin stops being protective of his companions in DOS, Fili takes over doing so. No, I am not even talking about Kili here. Once the four dwarves stay behind in Bard’s house Fili takes on a kind of leadership role. And there he starts to act very grown-up when orcs and later the dragon are about to come. He not only tells Bard to get his children out of danger, he even tries to protect them himself when Bard can’t do so anymore. He must be afraid himself (who wouldn’t?), but still he throws himself against the orcs with his bare hands in a desperate attempt to keep them away from the girls. Later on he even pushes one of the girls out of danger and tries to protect her with only his body. People might call me crazy here, but to me that is a turning point for Fili – where he grows up and shows responsibility on his own. It is also an important foreshadowing for those of you who know the book. I just desperately hope this will be followed in TABA!
And then of course there is the major motive of Fili so far. In AUJ he was shown to us as almost blindly loyal to his uncle. He still shows us this in DOS; however, the last time this motive is to be seen is in Beorn’s house, where twice he looks to Thorin for help or answers or whatever he hopes to find there. After this, Thorin started to change. There was hardly any time to interact between Beorn’s house and the flight from Mirkwood, but once the dwarves step out of the barrels, Thorin is suddenly very different towards his nephews. In an almost rude manner he doesn’t care at all about Kili’s wound and even scolds Fili for worrying so much over just a scratch. Possibly the first time Fili doesn’t quite pay attention to his changed uncle, but even then he already stayed at his brother’s side to aid him. And then at the parting scene Fili has to think his loyalties through.
There are two scenes I want to look at in particular: the healing scene and the parting scene. Let us start with the healing and no, I won’t go into any of the hate on this scene, as my personal opinion is of no concern here. It is interesting how the brothers react here though. Fili is not at all fond of elves and in this scene he never takes his eyes off Tauriel, always alert should she hurt his brother. Up until the end he doesn’t trust her. Even when Oin says it was a privilege to watch elven magic he hasn’t lost his scepticism. He probably still can’t believe he let her proceed at all. At the same time though he is definitely relieved to see his brother saved, even if he can’t quite arrange it with his dwarven pride to thank her.
Kili, well, I am still puzzled on how to interpret his reaction in this scene. At one point I thought he is talking about Tauriel, at another that he is talking about “some” woman and even that he might talk about his mother. Right now I mostly follow the theory that he is in a fever daze when he talks about love. But my own mood changes every day, so I’ll let everybody make up their own mind. The fact is, he is 77 years old. Dwarves hardly ever marry before they are 100 years old, so the question is, at this tender age, is Kili mentally mature enough to know what love is yet? Compare with 12 year olds who “love” a new person almost every week. After all, he might not mean it as seriously as it sounds. In the end I don’t think he would really have love, marriage, a relationship, sex (you choose) in mind. I see him more like a 14 year old human boy, interested enough to look at women already, but that’s about it.
Reaching for Tauriel’s hand is reasonable and almost sweet. Of course every person longs for physical contact in moments of great danger, and in those moments you don’t even care whose hand it is you hold.
Too bad Thorin wasn’t there though, it would be too interesting to know what he would have thought of this scene.
The parting scene is the first one that belongs almost only to the three heirs in the first two movies. And that is not the only reason why it is so special, for many things happen in this scene, although it only lasts for one minute!
Thorin’s decision to leave Kili behind comes completely unexpected to the younger nephew. Unlike Fili he hasn’t noticed the change in his uncle until then (some might argue he was busy with something else by that time…). And he even tries to charm his uncle with that little puppy smile that might have worked a million times before, still hoping his uncle is not serious. But he learns it the bitter way. In fact the glare Thorin gives him after this is so creepy, that Kili himself must be scared in this moment. There is nothing of old Thorin in those eyes in that moment; he is totally overtaken by dragon sickness there. And Kili is completely dumbstruck as he has never seen his uncle in this state before.
So that throws Fili into action. In his mind he must have been doubting his uncle before, as there is one glance full of skepticism he has for Thorin while he greedily tells the people of Lake-town of gold and treasures. The moment of the parting scene, however, is the straw that breaks the camel’s back. He starts one final attempt, but of course it’s in vain. Fili must choose his loyalties. And while Thorin tells him that the quest is more important than his kin, Fili must remember his dwarven roots which DO put kin over anything else. And he must admit that if one of his kinsmen cannot accept his help, then he has to turn to another one who does, no matter how hard this decision is for him. This doesn’t mean he is disloyal to Thorin there, but he has to admit though that there is nothing he can do for him at this point and tries to be useful at least somewhere else.
So is this atypical for Fili who has always been portrayed as “Thorin first”? Well, it is definitely not AUJ Fili, but he, too, changed in the course of his quest and this is the moment where he starts to show traits of the future king in him. It probably eased his decision when even Thorin pointed this out to him. Also, it is very true to the book, albeit in a totally different context. In the book both Fili and Kili disagree with Thorin when he goes completely mad over the Arkenstone inside Erebor. When they are trapped inside, it is them (and Bombur) who long for the outside, for sun and peace with all the other peoples outside the door. They don’t fall to the dragon sickness and don’t even understand how their uncle could, so in a way they turn their back on their uncle (or more precisely on the quest) in this moment. When you look at it, Fili is not doing anything else in this scene in Lake-town. Considering that Fili and Kili might not make it to Erebor or may come a lot later than this particular book scene, it is good we see this motive at least at some point in the films.
So what will happen with the three heirs in TABA? With all the alterations made from the book’s storyline in DOS I wouldn’t dare to make any predictions. Except of course the inevitable WILL happen, but when and where and how? We will see about that. I am definitely looking forward to how they will flesh out those three. They could totally mess it up, but they could also make it very interesting. In the end, only time will tell. All we can hope for is an honourable end to the story of the three Heirs of Durin in December 2014.
mmgilchrist said:
Lovely illustrations here, and some interesting commentary. However, I’m not happy with how the films are peddling ‘dragon sickness=addiction’, or the idea that Thorin goes “completely mad”. In fact, I think I am going to be angry with Jackson’s handling of Part 3, as it seems to me that it’s all geared to “Blame the Dwarf, excuse the Hobbit”. It’s only increasing what I disliked about the book even when I was 6 (I’m now 48!), when I was irked with Tolkien’s indulgence towards Bilbo and ‘punishment’ of Thorin, whom I did not think had done anything wrong.
Re: the leaving behind of Kíli and abandoning “the burglar” – sorry, but this is a basic military command issue: a responsible commander simply cannot jeopardise a mission for any one individual. It would have been irresponsible to take Kíli, who was obviously too weak to manage, and would have tied up other members of the company in terms of having to take care of him. Leaving the boys also should have served as an ‘insurance policy’ for the future of the dynasty (allowing for the fact that Thorin cannot predict that Smaug is a) alive and b) is going to go for Laketown).
archedcory1 said:
Different interpretations I guess, to me already in the book the dragon sickness was an addiction. However I agree with you, I never understood why in the end Bilbo was the hero, he who did everything wrong after he came to Erebor. I was 10 years older than you when I read it the first time but also saw it like this.
I guess speaking in military terms sending just one of the company into the mountain wasn’t such a smart idea either, so should we apply these standards at all?
In the context of the FILM universe I do understand why leaving Kili behind was necessary. I just guess inventing the wound for drama wasn’t. :)
beorneoth said:
I hardly think that the quest could be qualified as a military venture in any case…. that is a pretty clear distinction.
Alexandra Grey said:
I consider the quest a military mission once they reach Erebor, because Smaug is an enemy to be overcome. Not to get too in-depth with this, but: yes, sending a single individual into the mountain to scout out the territory is a completely normal action to take. I would do it; it protects the rest of the team while allowing for a necessary recon using the minimum number of people. I would have left Kili behind precisely because he would have taken up the attention of at least two other people, nor could he have “pulled his weight” in any meaningful sense once the rest of them got inside.
mmgilchrist said:
Yes: to me it makes perfect sense. It is, effectively, a military mission, and the reasons for sending in Bilbo were explained previously: he should be lighter on his feet, being barefoot, and his scent is unfamiliar to the dragon, should it still be alive.
I have been left very unhappy with the final film, after which my father (who first read the books to me about 44 years ago) remarked: “Hatchet-job on poor old Thorin, to whitewash the Hobbit!”
D.J. said:
The problem I have with Thorin leaving Kili behind is that he was choosing to leave a very sick dwarf alone (or alone with no one but Bofur) in the hands of people who could not be entirely trusted, and certainly had not shown themselves to have a healer capable of helping him. Oin chose to stay on his own, but if he didn’t, and if Fili had done as Thorin wished and gone with the company, then Kili would have had no one to help him (not after they pissed off Bard). I find that extremely careless on Thorin’s part.
Tess said:
I question why the dwarves didn’t have any one to help them. The people of Laketown thought the dwarves were going to make them rich. They supplied them with weapons and had a party in their honor, so it made no sense to me that the very next morning, no one was willing to take them in.
D.J. said:
It may be they didn’t trust anyone else. But even so, the general population seems to be poor, so it’s likely guests are not welcome. Perhaps if Bard had refused (more strongly) they would have gone to the Master.
Michelle said:
Addressing the ‘love’ story from the Tolkien perspective, Dwarves and Elves were created from seperate gods. Therefore, this notion of them falling in love is as a gizelle and an ox falling in love. It does not work for me. Elves and Men are more likely, as Men were created in the likeness of Elves, and a stronger likelihood of love could be possible.
But then here is another conflict. As we read and see in ‘Fellowship’ ‘Towers’ and ‘Return of the King’, Gimli declares a love for Galadriel and remains true to only her the rest of his lifetime. This exceptional and odd behavior of a Dwarf provides evidence that Kili’s ‘love’ is possible too. Just a thought.
archedcory1 said:
Strictly biologically speaking dwarves and elves belong to different species, making it as weird as a human and a gorilla falling in love, but I didn’t want to go into this here, this is not supposed to be a biologic text.
Actually the “love story” (I personally still have a problem calling it such, but I know others do) per se ridicules the uniqueness of Gimli’s affection for Galadriel, and that is really sad.
PJ makes it look as if every time a male dwarf meets a female elf, he falls in love, which is not true as we know.
saraleee said:
I felt that the feelings that Kili and Tauriel showed for one another were not “love,” but rather the result of their unprejudiced, more open-hearted interest in a type of person they’d never met before.
To me, the point of having the two of them have any kind of friendly relationship was to show how prejudiced and narrow-minded others of both races are, and how much better things would be if elves and dwarves were allies rather than enemies.
Also, the whole “she walks in starlight” speech said to me that Kili knew he was admiring a dream-figure, not a real person. In their real life, an elf and a dwarf would never be able to build a life together, but on a spiritual level, they have more in common than anyone could know — I think that’s what he was saying.
archedcory1 said:
So do I, so please PJ, don’t mess this up with a kissing scene in TABA!
Kayley said:
Pretty please with cherries on top!
No Kissing!!!
No making out in the yard!!!
No romance at all!!!
Just two young, sweet, innocent beings being open minded and enjoying the company of each other.
saraleee said:
I’d be totally on board with two young, sweet, innocent beings being open-minded and enjoying each other’s company. Yep. That works for me.
Anjy Roemelt said:
Do you remember in Fellowship (the BOOK) when Frodo sees Gildor from “the other side”, like he really is, an elf-lord revealed in his wrath? To spin the idea on – Kili may have perceived something more in Tauriel when she did her magic – although she is but a silvan or even an Avari, never saw Valimar and thus shouldn’t even own the same wielding of magic. period. – something that evoked more knowledge of love even than he could have had in his teenage drwaf-skull all by his own and hence his remark,. still half drugged by healing-magic.
D.J. said:
Was that Gildor or Glorfindel?
Anjy Roemelt said:
Oh, yeah, you’re right, it was Glorfindel. They met Gildor while still in the Shire.
saraleee said:
Yes, plus in this version Kili has the Morghul poison in him too, so he’s going toward the “other side,” which might make any manifestation of goodness appear to glow.
archedcory1 said:
Can non-humans (again, biologically speaking hobbits are “kinda” human) actually become wraiths? I have never thought about this…
saraleee said:
Hmmm… I don’t know. I thought I’d read somewhere that dwarves couldn’t become wraiths — that was the difference between the effect the Seven Rings had on the dwarves and the way the Nine corrupted the humans.
But the evil poison must surely affect dwarves to some degree.
D.J. said:
The rings of power could not corrupt dwarves in the same way it did the 9 men “kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old”, who became wraiths due to Sauron’s influence. I’m not aware of any reference to what a Morgul blade (or shaft – assuming it is made with similar intentions) could do to a dwarf, but it stands to reason that if the rings (with all of Sauron’s power behind them) could not turn them to wraiths, it is unlikely anything else would either.
LilyAnn said:
I never really liked Thorin I always thought he was a jerk to Bilbo AND his companions I always liked Fili, Kili, Bifer, bofur Bombur, Ganndalf, Bilbo, Legolas, Tauriel, ANd all the ELves and dwarves besides Thrandirwill And Thorin,i liked radigast but the only thing i did NOT like about him was the bird poop in his hair. NICE ARTCILE! BEAUTIFUL SUMMARY ON THORIN, FILI AND KILI! The healing scenes are cool and all the fighting scenes are cool.
mmgilchrist said:
It’s more that it’s making up for the fact that they didn’t really depict the Gimli/Galadriel crush in the LotR films, so they’ve transposed it.
Brandy Kratz said:
Actually the whole wound and Tauriel healing scenes were not needed at all. I think it is Jackson’s way to build up to the romance, which seems forced and does not have a natural flow to it at all. Tauriel looks like she is uncomfortable and stiff when Kili mummers about if she would ever be able to love a dwarf, and we are not positive if he means Tauriel. Coming from a military family Thorin’s decisions are not easy and you can see it on his face. The only time I saw the dragon sickness was when he stops Bilbo and asks about the Arkenstone. His behavior towards Smaug is pretty much constant with what we about dwarves. I never did like how the book ended. I have always liked Thorin, even when I read the book when I was 4 (I am now 40), and felt he got the short end of the deal. I adore Bilbo and this is Tolkien’s way of showing us that it is not the size of the person that makes him honorable but the heart inside of the person. Remember this was a children’s book, so I think he just wanted to show children what happens to people who are greedy, to teach them lessons. The Hobbit started out as a story that he told to his own children, I think. In DoS we see Thorin smile more then at anytime in AUJ. I don’t think the dragon sickness started to affect him until he stepped into the mountain but Balin’s little talk with him sort of made him “come back” to normal. Otherwise he would never have gone to aid Bilbo. The look on his face when they see the bodies of the dwarves that didn’t make it out of the mountain after Smaug’s attack showed that he did care about more then gold. But this is just my take on the movie. And I am dreading how the final scenes of the battle will unfold.
Tess said:
The scene with the bodies confused me. How could Thorin have thought these dwarves made it out. The battle with Smaug wasn’t yesterday, it was 70 years ago The dwarves have regrouped, and Thorin has met with all the families. I could understand being upset to see how his fellow dwarves died but he shouldn’t have been surprised that they did die.
mmgilchrist said:
Not necessarily. Didn’t some of the refugees go to what was then Grór’s kingdom in the Iron Hills?
mmgilchrist said:
Indeed: Thorin gets a very bad deal from the author, considering that his death and those of the boys weren’t originally planned. Those of the boys were effectively tacked on in a single sentence late in the story’s development.
As to: “I adore Bilbo and this is Tolkien’s way of showing us that it is not the size of the person that makes him honorable but the heart inside of the person”
“Honourable” isn’t the word I’d use for Bilbo. That’s why the ending is so bloody unjust.
saraleee said:
What a great and insightful article! I really enjoyed how you picked out these turning points that were portrayed in subtle, and sometimes silent, ways throughout the movie.
I especially liked how you pointed out Fili’s assuming command of the dwarves left in Laketown.
Kili’s recklessness and openness, his being different from the other dwarves and having to come to terms with the fact that he’s not invulnerable — those were all good points too. I’ve already said that I think the Kili/Tauriel relationship is supposed to be a symbol of how elves and dwarves *could* get over their animosities and learn to get along, and not just a romance for the sake of romance.
Thorin’s gradual shift to being obssessed with the quest, becoming willing to sacrifice the members of his company to achieve his goal, is very well noted. It’s funny, but I’m not sure I see gold-sickness in him yet. He’s obssessed and beginning to value the Arkenstone and the reclaiming of Erebor above his family and friends, but I don’t think it could be full-on dragon sickness before he actually enters the mountain. Could it?
Perhaps it’s his single-minded, unbalanced focus on his goal that allows the dragon sickness to enter his mind.
archedcory1 said:
Apparently everybody interprets the whole dragon sickness completely different, which I find interesting in its own. This is just my own approach, feel free to differ! :D
D.J. said:
It’s hard to say if they are trying to make it appear that Thorin’s decisions in Laketown are symptoms of dragon sickness (the exact definition of which is far from simple in the book and probably deserves its own essay) or are more simple manifestations of Thorin’s imperfect leadership.
saraleee said:
I think that would be a very interesting essay. What is dragon sickness, exactly? Or, to be more precise, what is the source of the madness that afflicts these members of the Line of Durin?
Thror was already affected by the time the dragon showed up. Was it the ring that caused the problem, or the dragon?
My belief is that (Ring of Power aside) the dragon itself is full of evil magic, which is why, after Smaug is killed and its corpse sinks into the Lake, the people of Esgaroth move their village upstream and nobody goes after the gems and gold that had become encrusted in Smaug’s skin. The dragon’s very remains are evil, which renders the waters that flow around its body contaminated and “cursed,” as the Laketowners later said.
archedcory1 said:
Of course, in Middle-earth dragons themselves have some kind of magic on them as well, just think of the massive and tragic influence Glaurung had on the children of Hurin. It just seems each one has their own kind of “magic”? Which is interesting on its own as well.
I wouldn’t say all members of the Line of Durin are afflicted by dragon sickness, after all Kili and Fili are not at all falling for it!
D.J. said:
I think the trouble in defining dragon-sickness comes when you read what Tolkien wrote about the Master of Laketown: “The old Master had come to a bad end. Bard had given him much gold for the help of the Lake-people, but being of the kind that easily catches such disease he fell under the dragon-sickness, and took most of the gold and fled with it, and died of starvation in the Waste, deserted by his companions.”
It was not a dwarven-specific disease. It was also easily caught, if you were of the “kind”. To me, Tolkien’s dragon-sickness is just greed + bad luck, but whether or not it needs a dragon is debatable. I would have to go back and check all mentions of it.
Tess said:
I agree, I did not see greed in Thorin. He didn’t seem interested in the gold at all just the Arkenstone which he needed to regain his homeland and his title. I also didn’t see any recklessness in Kili. Someone had to open the gate or they would have all die. Kili looked around and saw that he was the closest and took his chance. I see that as bravery and neccessity not recklessness.
Kayley said:
Interesting essay, thank you for writing it!
However I completely disagree in the “leaving Kili behind” matter.
While watching the movie for the 1st time I thought: Oh no, don’t do that to him!
The second time I thought: Look, Thorin waits for as long as he can to make this decision! He checks on him in the weapons chamber and the glare Kili receives is in my opinion not one of disgrace and disappointment, but sincere concern. Thorin wants Kili to be all right, he wants to take him to Erebor!
The 3rd time I saw the movie I felt almost sorry for Thorin for having to leave Kili behind. I can see him suffering!
The look he gives Kili when he holds his Head and tells him to “follow us when you are healed” speaks volumes.
And I can understand the decision. What good would it do to take him? He would slow everyone down and he would not get better himself. I think Thorin can see that this wound is not “just a scratch”. He simply does not have the time to look more into it. And he doesn’t seem to think it too serious, just serious enough for Kili to be NOT well. Kili, on the other hand, would never have allowed Thorin to give up on the quest to stay with him… A lost Erebor would do noone any good.
So, I don’t see much dragon sickness in Thorin in this scene at all, only concern for his kin and a lot of leadership burden.
More agreeable for me is your analysis of Fili and the changes in his behavior. Seems to me like he is finally getting an idea of what his inheritage might mean one day…. choosing your own ways of action, even if they possibly provoke or even defy your role model.
Chelsea said:
Well said.
I also know that Richard Armitage has said that the gold isn’t affecting Thorin until he’s actually inside of the mountain.
I personally am of the thought that Thorin is only being faced with more and more difficult and time pressing decisions, and he’s doing his best to make the right choices, even if they are not choices he would like to make (like leaving Kili behind). As we also see in the book, this will ramp up to him not making good choices later. For the presentation of Thorin’s sickness, even Armitage has said (for the third film) that he was constantly having this debate in his head whether Thorin was right or wrong. I feel like this movie is therefore properly foreshadowing the decisions Thorin makes as very debatable. Even without the sickness. I also think that for the majority of this film is simply darker and more difficult for the characters, and that only in the last twenty minutes or so in the film we are seeing Thorin affected by the gold. Until the last twenty minutes, Thorin is still the same character he was in the first film, just with more burdens concerning the quest (with the absence of Gandalf), more difficult situations to deal with, and harder choices to make.
Eniliph said:
Thank for this essay, archedcory1. I actually hoped you would write another one about the heirs of Durin. :-)
I disagree with you on some aspects though. The expression on Thorins face after Bilbo discovered the keyhole (and AFTER he gave Bilbo this look of reproach for nearly kicking the key over the edge ;-) ) to me seemed full of new hope and not at all dangerous.
Like you, I think that he’s not the perfect leader anymore he was in AUJ, but I’m not sure it’s due to the dragon sickness; or at least not only. I think anyone becomes fiercer if his goal is getting closer and closer, no matter what this goal is.
In my opinion, his development towards the “villain” he’ll become in TABA isn’t linear at all. While I agree that leaving Bofur behind was almost mean (seriously – somebody could have gone back and woken him up; or are we supposed to think nobody knows where he spent the night?), I think leaving Kili behind wasn’t only selfish. After all Kili wouldnt have made it to the mountain – not to speak of facing a dragon! (However Thorin could have made sure Kili was taken care of before leaving him behind!)
When Thorin tells Bilbo to go with Balin, in my eyes he’s being the leader again that tries to save his companions, knowing that he himself wouldn’t make it to the entrance before Smaug attacks them. Also when he tells Bilbo what to do when they face the dragon between the forges or later when he cries out for Bilbo to keep going – those were all scenes that in my opinion brought back the “old” Thorin.
Concerning Fili: If brothers aren’t really much different from sisters, I don’t think Fili’s care for Kili is in any way exagerated. If my sister was hit by an arrow I wouldn’t leave her for any reason in the world – and if the whole rest of our family abandoned us!
I don’t think Kili’s suffering has anything to do with weakness. Come on! He got shot with a Morgul shaft! Remember Frodo after he was stabbed in “fellowship”? I don’t think you can compare this to a burning coat; Thorin wasn’t even hurt!
By the way: I really wonder what might be going on in Thorins head when Smaug leaves to attack Esgaroth (where Fili and Kili are!).
archedcory1 said:
Well, to be honest, I have no idea what a “Morgul shaft” is since that is something PJ made up.
As for brothers, are there siblings like that in real life? I am glad there are. I have a brother myself, but haven’t talked to him in years (frankly, not my fault), so having such a broken relationship to my own brother I can’t imagine it being the complete opposite for others, but I am glad it is!
But coming from somebody who was always longing for more brotherly love, I found this scene really sweet and Fili’s decision very much understandable. I mean, he gave up his dream for his brother!
As for Thorin: To sum it up I guess he was the perfect leader in AUJ, switches back and forth in DOS and will become the “bad guy” in full in TABA. It somehow seems to be they intended this… or I am just over-interpreting everything. :)
You are right, I haven’t thought about this: Leaving Kili behind without appointing anybody to his care is actually worse than leaving him behind at all. Good thing Oin jumped in for that job! :)
Eniliph said:
Actually my brother and I have a very difficult relationship, too; so I can understand that. ;-)
That’s what I meant. I think, Thorin’s changing is done really well, it’s less abrupt than (I felt) it was in the book.
valandhir said:
You know what a Morgulblade is, do you? The concept is well available for anyone who knows the movies. Secondly – even with a normal arrowwound things would be a bit dire. The arrow hits right above the knee, the immobilizing effect it has immediatly is quite realistic and when Kíli falls into the barrel the arrowshaft breaks off, which is dangerous enough, because it makes removing the tip even more complicated.
Even if this was only your simple, regular, medieval arrow, stuck into dirt (yes, archers did that, so the wounds of the enemy would infect) the injury could easily be lethal thanks to blood poisoning.
I really don’t see your whole “whining” issue. Kíli WALKS ashore, while guys like Ori crawl and need help. That’s not whining. He tries to remove the arrowhead – sensible and painful and tries to not show the pain to others.
While reading your article I had the distinct feeling that you either have a very different way of interpreting scenes, or that you dislike the character on principle.
I’d also disagree on Thorin. He never becomes the bad guy… he is the classical fallen hero, who redeems himself through his last deed. And I do not see true traces of darkness in him prior to entering the treasure chamber.
BTW – I wish Thorin had been a bit more on the darkside and seriously damaged Legolas. I did not like Legolas after the books and less after the movies, but now I really wish him serious harm. ;)
archedcory1 said:
Some people agree, some don’t, that’s opinions. For some reason a few people asked me to write mine down and here it is. To me Kili looks shocked and surprised in the arrow scene. Nuff said.
And yeah, I know both my Tolkien and anatomy, don’t you worry.
D.J. said:
I thought the look on Thorin’s face when he holds the key expressed pure satisfaction, rather than greed or aggression. Certainly a rare sight on his face.
Anjy Roemelt said:
Interestingly enough, all the brothers I know to be close to a sibling are brothers to brothers. MAybe men do have a different view on that. Wait, there is one exception: my grandmother. She adored her brother who died in his fifties. So it does exist.
As for your essay, archecory1, I love it and will bring it when I see the film the next time (I’m not going to see it quite as often as AUJ – once for each dwarf – but my youngest daughetr still hasn’t been, which has to be mended before school starts again ;-) ) to check out certain scenes. I agree with most of what you say apart from my own pet-theory that much of what Thorin does is realted more to his relationshipt with his father and grandfather than to the dragon-sickness, but this is strictly film-lore, not book-lore. Tolkien didn’t elaborate in that subject, he describes it as just that. a sickness.
archedcory1 said:
So you print it and bring it to the cinema? :D
Dis of Erebor said:
This was fantastic!! Thank-you so much for sharing!
Blackwater said:
I am another who had problems with the treatment of Thorin in the book, in that even as a child felt the treatment to be cruel, and peculiar – being raised Catholic I had been taught about forgiveness and redemption, and Thorin’s fate bothered me, that there was so much hopelessness – also that Bilbo seemed actually “full of himself” at times in the book. Other things continue to bother me about the book, such as the fact that Gandalf left them, no matter what the reason. Nor did the book Thorin ever seem to be all that bad, just a cranky, clever dwarf leader behaving like a dwarf.
Mercifully, or unmercifully as the case may be, PJ has given us, and think continues to give us, a complex, multidimensional Thorin in the films. I beg to disagree with some of your interpretations – particularly in picking up the key, I think Thorin’s expression is what one could expect of emotions that have run, in a very short time, to utter despair to hope to almost shock when that key almost goes over the edge. You can see how delicately Thorin picks the key up and hear the scrape. It’s not until it’s firmly in his hand that he begins to smile. I don’t see his looking at the keyhole as greedy and demanding – it’s the look of one who has gone through hell and back to reach this goal, to get back to his HOME. I think that gets forgotten a lot over the fuss over the gold, that this is Thorin’s and Balin’s and Dwalin’s home – fortunately the movie beautifully depicts that moment of entry. Notice, too, Thorin as he enters isn’t talking about gold – it’s “these walls, these halls, this stone.”
For me, of course Thorin is more restless as he approaches the mountain, he has the deadline of Durin’s Day hanging over him, the weight of carrying on his family line, of bringing the exiled dwarves back to Erebor, he’s potentially facing madness and a dragon, and just about everyone and everything in Middle Earth has tried to crush him – and he’s alone with it all, except for Bilbo. Even, tho I understand it, to my mind Fili, as the heir, should have understood better, even if he opted to stay with Kili. Fili is not a child, and as Thorin says, he cannot risk the fate of this quest of one dwarf, not even his own kin. Of course he can’t – the quest was never just about the heirs of Durin. An entire kingdom of dwarves was displaced by Smaug. And, Thorin can’t risk the fate of the quest for one burglar, even one who saved him repeatedly. But Thorin does, ultimately.
Also I think Thorin is readily sacrificing himself (somewhat similar to the pine tree Azog scene) at the pit. He wants Bilbo to follow Balin (as when Dwalin said earlier “we’ll never make it” and Thorin says “some of us might”). Thorin knows perfectly well he could be the one who dies, just as he knew when he walked down the tree in AUJ, But if he had followed Bilbo and Balin, the dragon would have torched all three. I don’t think Thorin even knew where Dwalin and Nori were at that point.
I’d also disagree that Kiili is whining at all, or that Thorin is uncaring – Thorin doesn’t know how badly Kili is wounded, as Kili is hiding the fact. And Thorin doesn’t know, think he is suspicious, until Kili falls stealing the weapons. And I certainly don’t think the looks Thorin give Kili are creepy – implacable, yes. But there is compassion and caring there – how could there not be – I believe Thorin loves his nephews, they are his best fighters, hope, and his heirs. I’m certainly not seeing any hint of dragon sickness, and only a glimpse of that, when Thorin is in Erebor – and he quickly snaps out of it at the sight of Smaug. And even that is tangled with the fact that Bilbo isn’t exactly up front with his answers.
Overall, I think Peter Jackson gave us a majestic, complex Thorin that many of us have come to care about, in addition to Fili and Kili and all the dwarves. So I’ll say the “unthinkable” and flat out think PJ should find a better ending than what I thought was the hopelessness of the book – for me in the book there were too many questions, too many things that others did that I didn’t think were right. IMO the heirs of Durin deserve better, book, and especially now the movie Thorin, Fili, and Kili.
Eniliph said:
I agree on what you say about Kili. Thorin didn’t even see how Kili was wounded; the fight took place exactly above him. Also when Kili jumps back in his barrel, Thorin is already further down the river. He never had a look at the wound – which is sort of careless I think, because he could have done so when they had to rest. But he therefore can’t know how bad things are.
natasha said:
That was great! Thank you. You shared my own thoughts and feelings about Thorin. I agree with everything you wrote.
Anjy Roemelt said:
I don’t think it’s fair to bring religion in. If ever there was a devoted catholic, it’s Tolkien. But let’s do it! Thorin is forgiven or his death wouldn’t be that noble-looking. But especially in catholicism it’s God’s forgiveness that counts, human forgiveness is not a moral imperative but a consequence of God’s. so, I’m sorry, Thorin, you still have to play the villain’s part because it’s educational for the book’s purpose and to show you’re not all bad you may repent on your death-bed and pass away in splendour, even have the final word. :-)
mmgilchrist said:
Which, I’m afraid, is what repels me about both Tolkien’s religious perspective and the book’s ending. Thorin’s no villain, and the idea of deathbed repentance, when he is the wronged party… It makes me sick.
I cannot accept a ‘moral lesson’ from a novelist whose religious beliefs made him fail what I regard as one of the major moral litmus tests of his time. Tolkien supported the cause of Franco in Spain in the 1930s. He can take his preaching somewhere else.
norma said:
I still think the best way to educate children is, when you know you have done wrong, you apologise and repent and not repeat the same mistake in future.
Can’t a person repent and still live? If it was Thorin’s mistake why punish Fili and Kili? What about other characters in the book who didn’t do right? Don’t they get punishments as well?
mmgilchrist said:
Of course, the main person who does terrible things and gets away with it is one B. Baggins, Esq. of Bag End… It is very unedifying.
Melian said:
It is a good essay and I agree with all what archedory said about Kili and Fili, beside the fact how Kili reacts to his wound. In my eyes he is even much successful in hiding the seriousness of it! I am sure that Thorin until his leaving from Esgaroth does NOT know how serious it is indeed. He spoke of resting so he is thinking that was a harmless thing and with some time it will be better…he has no idea how dangerous it will be. All the other facts with the changing of both are well figured out.
But as others befor I also mostely disagree about the judgement of Thorin in DOS.
I dont see much carelessness about his followers…nor more than a small glimpse of dragon-sickness in that scene with Bilbo in the mountain.
Lets speak about caring of his people: It is not the last time at Beorns at all, he cares until the very end. During the fight against Smaug he sends Bilbo away to save him…knowing that Smaug is eager to get himself, Thorin, befor all the others! And as said befor, Thorin is willing to sacrifice himself so that some may survive…OR…that they may kill the beast no matter he will die himself trying that.
Who is the one standing in the forge challenging Smaug and insulting him so that he would spite fire to enlight the ovens? Who ist the one taking Smaugs attention on himself for several times? Who is the one standing at the most dangerous point…at that monumental dwarf statue and shouting out for Smaug to stop him..leading Smaug directly into the trap by facing him at that unshielded place? Its always Thorin, and he sends all the others to the less dangerous points or even in shelter. Even Bilbo..and that was AFTER the scene when he mistrusts him about the Arkenstone!
There were 2 scenes one could think Thorin does not care: first when he ordered to hurry and not to waste time with caring for the wound…some minutes befor he cried out for Kili in shock himself realizing his nephew is struck by an arrow…this was clear careness. And after they got out of the barrels…well…there were orcs behind…many fierce orcs! No time to care about such things…if death is behind you! And in Laketown Kili is hiding his pain and weakness well. In the weapon-chamber..Thorin stops his nephew and asks….worried… if it will work…careness again. Then the departing scene…carenessless? No, the opposide. Thorin knows Kili will never make it up to the mountain (seeing the steps I must agree with him) nor even face a dragon. He has responsibility to the others what he shows very often….he knows if Kili cannot follow the others escaping from Smaugs fire no one could leave him behind in the death zone: Taking Kili with them means risking the death of ALL for one in fact…I think its that what he meant with his words to Fili! So in fact leaving Kili behind was an act of saving him, not knowing that Smaug will come. Of course leaving him alone is not as good, but first Thorin did not know how serious it was…second he could expect that the people would help his nephew because mostly all celebrated the king under the mountain, and the master was at their side…Leaving Kili alone was only the better one of two bad possibilities..not optimal, but the best at that point. Because…and now we get to the part with the dragon-sickness…Thorin COULD not give up..not at THIS point….so close to his goal! What is one day? Nothing for 4 dwarfs staying behind (he could not know the tragedy with the wound and later the dragon)..ALL for the quest! And as told, that quest is his life-goal…the only sense he could found in the last 170 years. Do you want to blame him for beeing so fixed? After all they had through they FINALLY had the goal in front…only hours away….who on Arda would give up at that point? No one, I guess. Thats no dragon-sickness, thats desperate yearning for the only thing that hold you alive for more than a century! And you clearly see that at the scene in front of the door! The light fades…and Thorins gaze shows that his world is breaking apart in that moment, this moment is the end for him…he would not care to die at that point…all seems to be over…his life lost his sence. The gaze when he asks Balin what they missed really hurted me, it was a helpless, broken expression on his face. But he was there very fast after Bilbos cry…surely sitting there not far away in the desperate hope of……something……whatever…..what would bring him hope again. And then he had the key back…and the door in front…and pure relief, satisfaction, hope in his eyes. I cannot see greed there or something what would repellent me or let me be scared…I see in his eyes that his nearly broken world arised anew , I love that expression full of hope and triumphe…his goal right befor his eyes..that long awaited goal. And when they enter the mountain its the most emotional scene of whole the movie bringing me to tears over and over again….Thorin touching the walls…whispering in awe of his memories, not far away from tears…so incredible touching..its HOME, not gold, he has found! And fear for what could await for him…madness?..burdens of past?..let him hesitate to help Bilbo fast…and then he is the first doing that. And now comes the first hint to real sickness..the point of asking for the Arkenstone. Thorin needs that…so desperate…to reunite all dwarves…it is so essentiell important that it is over EVERYTHING in that moment. Even understandable here, but definetely a hint of his later obsession…the first and only one that I see in whole of the movie what is clearly attached with the Arkenstone and can not be explained with other facts. For me Thorin is more fixed in DOS…obsessed by his goal,,,but not much changed…so I guess that change we will face in TABA…and I also think what we will see in TABA is a Thorin able to scare us to death!
archedcory1 said:
It is not religion that teaches us about virtues, it depends on how awesome your parents are. I was raised in an atheistic family and environment and I wouldn’t say I lack on any of those positive virtues because of that.
Forgiveness and redemption have nothing to do with religion, but with common sense.
Anjy Roemelt said:
Well, for Tolkien they did. But of course the fact that his mother turned catholic hadf a lot to do with it.
saraleee said:
What’s so hopeless about Thorin’s fate? In the book, he is redeemed — at the end he asks Bilbo’s pardon, and shows that he has learned the most important lesson: “If more people valued good food and good cheer over hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”
The whole point of Thorin’s journey is to discover that what is most important is not being a conquering hero, or a wealthy king, or even the avenger of his people. The most important thing in life is to be happy with what you have. And he finally gets it. Being with Bilbo has taught him that.
It’s not sad that he dies. Everyone dies. Thorin made some terrible mistakes, but he also was a hero in battle and finally, in the end, he died in peace. In all the great sagas, that’s the way it goes.
Melian said:
You are right, Saralee. The only tragedy may be that Thorin after realizing that important fact, did not get more time to enjoy the important things in life, to get the happyness he never had befor beeing so fixed to his goal. Otherway I am sure the death of his nephews would have broken him.. the feeling of guilt…and so I guess he would not find happyness again after that. Thinking about that fact the end was good as it was, although its very sad.
mmgilchrist said:
I think it was the grief over his nephews that killed him. Dwarves are tough. The fact he lasted the night suggests he could have had a chance. He shouldn’t have apologised to Bilbo, though: Bilbo was the one who had wronged him, and Gandalf hadn’t exactly played fair either. The ending leaves a nasty taste.
tigrislilium said:
a better ending would be greatly appreciated! heck, Tolkien himself had given one prior to the wasteful heartbreaking end published.
Justin said:
I don’t think Fili and Kili will die in TABA after that building with Kili’s character. Ya I know its not accurate with the book but you have to remember that this is an adaptation of The book. People didn’t put up a big stink when Legolas returned and I really want them to survive
archedcory1 said:
Aidan Turner might disagree with you though, considering he filmed his death scene.
Also, why do you want them to survive? How does that improve the story? Having Legolas there does in a way, that the Mirkwood elves get faces we can recognize. Of course, giving him the importance he has there is a totally different thing.
Justin said:
What source do you have that they filmed the death scene
brantgrant said:
The reason I don’t want to die is b/c they are my all time favorite characters in the Tolkienverse and I am one of those people who wants everyone to survive
archedcory1 said:
And how does that fit in with the “Tolkienverse”? Where would they be at the time of Lord of the Rings? That would a) change everything that has been written down afterwards and b) possibly not even give them an honourable ending (which they have in The Hobbit) in the War of the Ring. I wouldn’t want that for a character I like.
As for source: Aidan Turner said that in an interview I translated over a year ago. It’s somewhere on this page.
brantgrant said:
Well they this idea of them surviving is just dream fan fiction nothing to be taken seriously but as for were they would be during LOTR if they survived is back in Erebor being the King and Prince under the mountain
archedcory1 said:
You do realize there is stuff happening there besides living happily ever after and sitting on their throne, right?
brantgrant said:
Yes I just giving my ideas that all no need to get upset
Melian said:
Same time with the Battle of Pellenor Erebor was attacked by the forces of evil too…as well as all other kingdoms of the free folks…. In the battle in front of Erebor at March 17. of the year 3019 TA. the King of Dale, in great need, asked for the help of the King under the Mountain, and Dain Ironfoot hurried to his aid with the dwarves of Erebor. Both kings were falling side by side at that day. So if Fili and Kili would have survived probably the spring of 3019 would have seen their end too.
mmgilchrist said:
Depends on the luck of battle. We don’t know the circumstances of Dáin or the King of Dale’s deaths. Given that their forces won, it’s clearly not a massacre, so the others might have survived a similar scenario.
leiaknits said:
Tell me about it. I would say Theoden is my fav character from LOTR, and I have to avert my eyes at his death scene every time I watch. I can only hope PJ has enough guts to save the Heirs of Durin. Really, did Tauriel save Kili just for him to die in the next film? And Thorin is so complex, such a more dynamic character in the films. Ive become very attached to all of these dwarves. I’m bringing kleenex in any case for TBA, that’s for sure!
Melian said:
As sad as it is there is no other end to create as in the book, for several reasons. PJ is too much Tolkien-fan to change that important part of the book.
I only hope it will be similar to the book, Kili and Fili are dying in defending their uncle and all three will get a honourable death . That it will be very touching I see as sure knowing PJ and his ability to create death-scenes like that of Boromir…So…aye..handkerchiefs could be usefull, I guess..
Anjy Roemelt said:
He did change the end of Lord of the Rings pretty much ;-)
leiaknits said:
In Two Towers, Sarumon and Worm Tongue die in the film, where they do not in the book. Why not the opposite for Thorin and his nephews? My hypothesis is that Tauriel may die defending Kili in the great battle. Hence Legolas remains unattached for LOTR (of course). Really, other than locations, DOS seems to not follow the book whatsoever, and I don’t mind. There’s nothing more awesome than a gold-covered Smaug! I’m sure the extended edition will clear a few thing up, just as it has for AUJ. There, we see Kili commenting on the attractiveness of elves, so his flirting in DOS is not such a shock. Also, it was interesting to see the chest of jewels and white stones Thranduil is so covetous of in the extended scenes, and I think it gave more background into why he does not come to Erebor’s aid, etc. In any case, I’m not convinced for either literary or cinematic reasons that all three, Thorin, Fili, and Kili MUST meet their doom. I’m thinking with PJ behind the wheel just about anything is possible! Lol! And I’m pretty sure we’re in for a kissing scene of some sort in the third film, too! We just don’t know who it is yet!
leiaknits said:
Oh, yikes! I meant Sarumon and Worm Tongue die in the film Return of the King, my bad.
brantgrant said:
and If Kili died he would break his pure promise to his mother and that interview with Adrian Turner can be misinterpreted because he is not talking about the characters death but the last seen they filmed
Melian said:
Sorry to tell you that all three actors spoke about their death scenes in interviews. PJ will not change that. Did he change the death of Boromir or Theoden? He did not, because their death is of importance for the story and the future. If one of the 3 heirs of Durin would survive PJ would bring a mess into the following history. Dain would not be King under the mountain later…why should Balin leave Erebor to reclaim Moria etc….And honestly: Who do you want to survive? All 3 would be unrealistic so much…in such a battle. Thorin would never ever survive the loss of his nephews after all he lost in his life, it would be the final struck destroying him, the guilt that they had fallen defending his life. And do you really think Kili would mentally survive the death of his brother? Remember the stone giants…the look at Kilis face! It would be his end too to see his brother die, I am sure. And for Fili the same, although I must say, Fili maybe could stand that…however…maybe in a similar way like Thorin standed the death of Frerin, causing bitterness and traumata. Would you really wish that to him?
brantgrant said:
I never said I wanted thorin to survive his death is WAY to important to the story just Fili & Kili because they were my favorite when I read the hobbit b/c they were the two young men (by dwarf standards) who were the closest of brothers (which is a RARE thing) with the burden of being princes knowing they that next line to the throne for a kingdom that has seen better days and that there is a great chance that their people might lie in either of their hands and these very young dwarves (26 in hiuman years I did the math) go on a quest knowing that it increases this chance 100 fold but they go without hesitation before their lives have began because they do for there people and they have fun doing it
Just a side note if Fili & Kili survived Dain would just be royalty not king which explains why he was at the meeting at rivendell because if he was king he would have sent someone like Thanduril sent Legolas and the asshole from Gondor sent borimer
PS it has been a long time since I read the book
PPS sorry for all the misspellings
tigrislilium said:
realistically, only 3 of 13 dead is as unrealistic as all surviving, none or only the 3 direct line heirs getting killed. never mind permitting all 3 to be at risk thereby risking the succession.
Mysterious Maiden said:
Which interviews were those that they talked about their death scenes in? I’ve see the one with Aiden Turner, but what were the other two? Could you post a link or something? I’d like to see them!
valandhir said:
And that is the tragic moment. In this Kíli is a symbol for all the sons of mothers in the story. All mothers want their sons to come home, many say “come back”, many promise they will. (We do not know if Thorin’s mother, Thrain’s wife may still alive, she could well be, and she too will not see her son again) but many sons never return and Kíli will not either. Because no wishes can change fate.
D.J. said:
But Saruman and Wormtongue do die (albeit in a completely different, and in my opinion, far more interesting way) by the end of the book Return of the King, in the “Scouring of the Shire”. But the way PJ kills them off in the Extended Edition is one of my least favorite parts.
Adrian said:
Thorin and Fili will die honorably in battle just as they did in the books. Furthermore, I have a feeling kili will die trying to save Tauriel somehow. And, she too will die as well in the Battle of the Five Armies.
Anjy Roemelt said:
There is something struck mes as odd when I saw the movie: when Kili is hit Thorin does in fact not cry out – he did that iin AUJ when he thought his nephew was crushed by the stone giants – he kind of whispers his name in DOS and is bears a … well, final sound, at least to me, like he presumes a much worse outcome from this shot than there actually seems to be. Any ideas among us able assessors of dwarfish psychology why this may be? ;-)
D.J. said:
Umm, maybe Kili’s already lost to him because he’s becoming more and more attracted to elves, so this just makes it official? But that might be my bias talking…nevermind.
Anjy Roemelt said:
You think Thorin, obsessed as he is with his quest, noticed his nephew’s infatuation with the elf-girl? I’d rather think he nas started to view the whole quest more and more as HIS endeavour, not so much one they do together. So, when one of his compa ions is seemingly lost his first thought would be: how do I manage inspite of this. The present tends to get gobbled up by the future. In AUJ in the mountains it still was very much the present and Kili’s apparent loss primarily a blow to his feelings. Now it’s a blow to his tactics that must be dealt with reasonably.
On the other hand whispering instead of exclaiming may also be a sign of greater shock, even. Ah, what would breakfast be without speculations about dwarves. ;-)
Melian said:
I saw it as a bigger shock when Thorin more whispered Kilis name than cried out…He could hear his nephew screaming but could not see him…there were many orcs…Thorin looked as if he would be sure his nephew is dead….in the mountains he rushed forward…in fear and with desperate hope NOT to find him dead…unter this bridge he was trapped more or less not able to do something….at that moment…maybe therefor that different reaction?
saraleee said:
I agree, Melian.
D.J. said:
Well they cut out the scene of carrying Bombur through the forest (we see it in vlogs). That would have eaten up time, trying to haul him everywhere. We don’t know if that will be added to the EE or not. But if it is, then it makes his leaving Kili even more odd.
Melian said:
I guess its because in Laketown the goal is so close and the time so less.
When they were in Mirkwood it was not clear if they could reach Erebor in time at all, it was still far this time. Also one could not leave a companion behind in a wood without food and with unknown dangers. In Laketown staying behind was (if not knowing about the seriousness of the wound) the less dangerous thing compared with facing a dragon. Bombur alone and sleeping in Mirkwood would not have had any chance to survive, for Kili the chances in Laketown were even better than in Erebor with Smaug in it. That could be the reason.
Eniliph said:
Somehow everyone is seeing Thorin as a cold, calculating person – why ever would he be thinking things like “how to I get to the mountain with one dwarf less” when he’s just heard Fili desperately shouting out Kili’s name? He can’t see Kili (btw that’s because he’s below the bridge Kili is standing on, not necessarily because of the orcs), but he must have expected the worst. I agree with Melian, that he’s shocked and at the same time unable to do anything.
What I then disliked in the film is the fact that he doesn’t talk to Kili when they get out of the river. There would have been time for some words or at least a worried look, no matter how few time they had.
norma said:
Maybe Thorin did not talk to Kili after they got out of the river because of an oversight on the part of PJ & Co? :)
During commentary on LOTR Retun of the King, Karl Urban (Eomer) explained about the scene in the House of Healing where Eowyn was lying unconscious and Eomer was sitting by her side. He said he found out they were shooting the scene without him. He asked to be there because he thought it odd that after screaming and showing so much grief on finding her injured and unconscious on the battlefield, that he wouldn’t be there by her bedside.
archedcory1 said:
Damn, I was looking for the “like” button here…
Nauglamir said:
If you recall, Thorin was actually underneath the bridge when Kili was hit. He didn’t see it happen. His gasping of Kili’s name follows Fili’s loud, distraught cry, and I think was in response to it.
Ellen said:
When Tauriel talks about the “Feast of Starlight “….anyone know it’s elvish name?….the dialogue between her and Kili is wonderful..
valandhir said:
I agree with others before on the standard military procedure – no good leader risks the mission for one man – in fact I find that Thorin is willing to leave his nephew behind, takes a lot of shock out of the “I won’t risk the mission for one burglar” line. He will not risk the mission for anyone. Full stop. What Thorin did at the Troll’s place was foolish, condemning his entire team to roasting for one man. Noble, but foolish. Here he acts more like a military leader on a clear rationale.
Also I do not see Thorin act as uncaring when he leaves Kíli behind. Especially the moment “Come back when you are healed” is fairly emotional. Though it made me wonder… does Thorin know the nature of poison? Does he know there is no chance for Kíli?`Does he not trust himself to stay and watch Kíli die? He IS worried for Kíli that much we know since that scream in AUJ. But I do not see him cold or dismissivly with Kíli.
What I heavily disagree on is the “whining” issue in this article. When the dwarves leaves the barrels Kíli walks ashore on his own, in spite of the arrow wound, contrary to some other members of the party, namely Ori. When he is on the rocks he tries to remove the arrowhead, which is quite sensible as arrow wounds where the arrow was broken off and the tip is still in the wound are amongst the more dangerous kind of injuries. I remember reading somewhere in a book about medieval warfare that there is no such thing as “just an arrow wound.” He tries to remove the tip swiftly, so the wound will not infect further and can heal. Such a removal is not pain free under the best of circumstances, if only rarely shown on screen (Ever saw “Kingdom of Heavens”?) and if he shows some pain there, I would not interpret it as “whining.”
In the following sequences Kíli tries to go on best that he can, and while we are shown how he gets weaker, he does not whine or complain in any scene. I think he hides his state a bit too well, or he might not have been on the warehouse raid. Thorin is not shy to leave a hindrance behind, he’d not have taken Kíli on the raid, had he realized the extend of the problem.
Secondly, I do not see the scene where Kíli gets hit by the arrow as an “he has not learned to deal with setbacks” and what you write here. Of course he is surprised, he does not see the arrow coming, and the wound is directly at the knee, most knee wounds take a person down, that’s anatomy for you. But he gets himself together quickly enough, pulls the lever and manages to drop himself into the barrel. Good reaction all around.
When it comes to the infamous Tauriel/healing scene I have to say two things for Kíli – first: he is half delirious at the time and second: he just saw Tauriel’s true form, her elven light form, I think anyone is entitled to a little bit of sappiness after that.
About Fíli, I think the defining moment is where he chooses his brother over a potential legacy. It says a lot about him, that even with all the dreams, all the stories and responsibilities he grew up with, even with the promise that if they do it, he may one day follow his Uncle and become King… he chooses his brother. That’s character for you.
The second strong moment for him is IMO when he tells Bard to flee. He sees things may go badly, and he is honest enough to tell Bard to take his children and run. Okay, he also shows his “grown up in exile” roots here, no one cared if the dwarves had nowhere to go and they made it still. I really liked his character when he told Bard to save himself and the children, it shows that he cares, not just for himself, but for others too.
tigrislilium said:
Interesting interpretations. I think not all dwarves are susceptible to gold fever/dragon sickness. Recall Durin’s line was given one of those nasty power rings which in dwarves signifcantly magnify negative traits in addition to facilitating the acquisition of what the wearer desires as opposed to Wraithing them. I suspect they have a tainting quality that
contaminates what’s been acquired and having that wretched Arkenstone in close, long term proximity just increases such contamination. Thorin was exposed at a formative age to both whereas his nephews were not. I think this exposure left permanent damage & weakness that was exploited by that polluted hoard & Arkenstone. Toss in the two faced expectations: retake our homeland & avenge our dead vs. no, we’re fine as we are, really. No suprise Thorin was primed to fall. I still wish he hadn’t as I did when I read it back in 3rd grade & wonder if he’d had a loyal Sam unafraid to call him on his increasingly craptastic behavior; maybe Thorin wouldn’t’ve fallen.
On Fili, we can see him making the hard choice to abide by the core dwarven value of family first last always w/o wasting time on causing a ‘scene’ to make his point & choice clear. What a king he could’ve made! Although an earlier version by Tolkien ended differently.
As for Kili, let him & Tauriel develop or not as best suits the curent story interpretation without the absurd hatefest, kthx. The uncharacteristic minor whinging would seem to be more a poison based bug than feature and should be resolved now that he’s healed. Think of the poison as a varient of Black Breath which is known to mess with the victim’s psyche. Who hasn’t been so young, inexperienced & eager to please their elders that they haven’t had moments of foolishness?
TBourlon said:
Well it’s an interesting essay, but I don’t completely agree with your analysis of Thorin. When he picked up the key I didn’t see greed, I saw joy that he FINALLY would see Erebor again. I didn’t really see the greed (or sickness) until he saw all that gold, and consequently, when he saw the golden statue of Thror I think the look on his face was somewhere between shock and fear, as in “could this be me?” I also don’t think he glared at Kili, certainly he was very brusque with him at first, but then he stopped and smiled, showed real concern for his nephew in encouraging him to stay in Laketown until he got well. Now, some of that brusqueness may have been his anger at Bofur for not being there (hopefully we’ll get a good story on that in the EE), which may have bled over into his first command that Kili stay behind. No, he didn’t say anything when Oin said he’d stay behind as well, perhaps he was relieved that someone skilled in medicine would be with his nephew. But he was pretty upset when Fili manned up and stood up to him. And I don’t think Fili struggled with that decision at all – of course his brother meant more than the quest! But at the same time, Thorin was trying to explain to him that things wouldn’t be that simple once he was King, and had so many others to consider. Yes, Fili is definitely coming into his own “Majesty”, and like many I would have like to have seen even more of that. There’s still hope for the EE, though!
Cathy said:
It’s a good read even if I disagree with some of it.
Kili whining I don’t get because he isn’t. Showing he’s in pain at times is one thing, that isn’t whining. That’s him unable to keep pretending at the moment. Other than that he walks ashore on his own, he tries to tend to the wound himself and tells Bofur he’s fine when he looks at him. It’s Fili that points out Kili’s wounded. Kili acts like he’s fine in the weaponry and he still doesn’t say anything in Bard’s house.
Everything Kili does is the oposite of whining so I don’t understand how you can say he does.
Regarding the departing scene I think Thorin does make the right desicion to leave Kili behind – I mean look how pale Kili is compared to Thorin. At that point he looks really sick. But yes he could have made that desicion sooner and made sure he had a place to be. It was only luck that Bard has a good heart and still let’s them in after their previous scenes together. Thorin wouldn’t know if he’d let them in.
When Thorin tells Kili “Not you” he’s very cold, but once he looks at Kili he warms up and I say he’s genuinely loving there.
Audrina Mystique said:
I think there is one influence you haven’t given much thought to: the One Ring. I think it’s more the One Ring than gold fever or dragon sickness, especially in lake town (as he hasn’t even seen the dragon or the gold yet). Thorin already has the tendency to be standoffish towards other races and to hoard wealth, and the One Ring amplifies all negative qualities. Then he meets the dragon and sees the gold, and his hoarding tendencies and standoffishness is amplified even further, to the point of being violent towards anyone that comes between him and his treasure.
mmgilchrist said:
There’s an element of retconning in blaming the One Ring, though: when Tolkien first wrote ‘The Hobbit’, Bilbo’s ring was just a magic invisibility ring. It was in the 1950s rewrite that it became something more.
txcollies said:
Okay. okay what did you think of the third film? I was so so so SOOO disappointed the the durin boys’ deaths. I was so angry. And the romance plot. NOOOOOO
mmgilchrist said:
Agreed. I was deeply disappointed by this. I can see why they went down this route (to give each an individual ending, rather than a heap of small corpses; and because of the PG-12 rating), but to me, it weakened the force of the tragedy.
Dion said:
I personally didn’t mind the romance between Kili and Taurel, it was doomed from the start anyway. The book is obviously meant for children, and I get that they wanted the movies to appeal to more audiences than just children. It worked well for me, I didn’t think it was that ooc. I think you’re right that the other dwarves would have called Kili out on it, but in the scenes were Kili and Tauriel were together there were rarely any other dwarves around. The only time they were, they were too busy with healing Kili to worry about romance.
On the topic of Thorin, I agree with you that he seemed annoyed at Kili for complaining. But in Thorin’s defense; I don’t think he knew it was poison, he probably thought it was just a normal wound. Also, I liked how Thorin came to his senses and at least partially overcame his dragon sickness in 5 armies.
And I saw in one of your responses that you don’t consider Bilbo to really be honorable and that Thorin got an ending he didn’t deserve. I think that’s a bit true in the book, but as Jackson said in the behind the scenes footage; in the movies Bilbo needed to prove his worth. People don’t want to watch a movie about a character they don’t respect and who has no impact on the story and the characters. I thought they did that very well.
(Also, as a side note, I noticed that in my previous comment I seemed like I was bashing the book. I don’t mean it that way, I just had certain expectations when I started reading, and was a bit surprised at how the book turned out. I had expected a book a la Harry Potter, meaning it was meant as a children’s book but turns out to be great for all ages. But reading the Hobbit, I found out that it definitely was just a children’s book, and not very appealing to me as an adult. It’s not a bad book, I just didn’t meet expectations that I had after watching such awesome movies.)
Kim said:
I definitely understand not finding the book appealing. I still enjoy reading it, but even Tolkien himself found that to be a problem with it in his later years (according to Letters of Tolkien).